250. Editing Essentials 9: Style Sheets and Sample Edits

Editor Dayna Reidenouer is back to discuss the purpose of style sheets and sample edits and explains how they can impact the publishing process.
▬
Dayna's site
https://www.yourpublishingbff.com/

Dayna's Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/yourpublishingbff

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D' Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast for people who write, edit, read or listen. Dayna Reidenouer is back for the 9th episode of editing Essentials. This is style sheets and sample edits, episode 250 of the podcast. Well, I love having you back, and I'm so glad you're here.

Dayna: I'm so glad to be here, Jennia.

Jennia: Yay! It's so much fun when you get to do this with a friend. So the title says style sheets and sample edits. And I think we should start with sample edits because that's going to come earlier in the editing process or even before you officially enter the editing process. Since these are what you're going to be getting in return from an editor that you're considering hiring.

Dayna: Yes. Although I will say when I do a sample edit, I also include a copy of my style sheet.

Jennia: Mmm.

Dayna: That way clients know what they will be getting as a deliverable, and I'm hoping that seeing how thorough my style sheet is, that it works as a sales tool and helps them choose me over someone else equally as good.

Jennia: I can see doing that. Yeah, I don't do that, mostly because I do a lot of developmental online editing, so we'll get into this with the style sheets, but we don't typically provide one or have anything similar. But I might have an outline of the chapters and what occurs, or I always have an editorial summary that goes along with it. And while it's difficult providing that with the sample edit, I like to at least give a very condensed version of the summary. Again, so they'll see what they'll be getting back in return and I'll let them know, this is typically going to be closer to a bare minimum of five pages, in addition to the many comments I leave throughout. Again, just so they understand the sample really is just that. It's a sample, it's not indicative of everything that will be returned to you.

Dayna: The goal of a sample edit really is to give the client, or potential client, an insight into who you are as an editor. Basically, you get 1000 words, hopefully a sample, ha, of their worst writing. So you know what you have to look forward to. But also it allows you to show the client what you can do with their work. Because you want to be able to work with a client, not against a client

Jennia: Exactly.

Dayna: They need to see: Okay, what kinds of things do you look for? What kinds of things do you change? How do you leave comments? Do you leave comments?

Jennia: Mhm.

Dayna: There are some people who love semicolons and those who hate semicolons. And in a sample edit, sometimes you can see—you can tell which side of the aisle an editor falls on. Now, things like that, preferences, of course we are going to work with a client if they want as few commas as possible... Okay, sure. Are you writing a book for audio? Then you probably need more commas rather than less, because commas indicate where to take a breath. But if you're writing for text, sure, we can take out a bunch of commas.

Jennia: Yeah, I do the same thing with word choices, even saying the sentences out loud. So if an author has already indicated that their future plans include audio, that is going to make a difference, even in some of the phrasing. Because I think we all know there are words that might look gorgeous on the page, but when you say them out loud, you might trip over them or the sentence just feels like it's overflowing with wordiness.

Dayna: Pulchritude—beautiful, but it sure doesn't sound beautiful when you say it aloud.

Jennia: Not usually, no. But you also touched on something that is so important, and I think this is really important for authors to know: Yes, send us your worst writing. Don't send us the opening chapter that you have labored over and gone over and revised on your own, over and over again. It's already been fine tuned. You probably already have it in really excellent shape, so you're not going to get a really good feeling of what we're able to do with that piece if you're sending us something that's already top notch.

Dayna: Right. It's like if you've ever tried to memorize something, whether it's a Bible verse from way back when or a poem or something. That first line, because it's what you start with, that's the one that you're going to remember because it's stuck in your head. You have gone over it way more times than you have gone over, like, verse five. So it's very similar to working on an edit, working on revising your draft.

Jennia: Yeah. That's why I even ask people, is there a section maybe that you're having a hard time with? Does the wording just seem to fall flat for you, or do you feel like the characterization isn't coming across the way that it's intended? And I'll also sometimes ask them if I believe it's going to be possible in the sample, let me know what you're going for here, and then I'll see what I can do with it. And even if I don't have enough to work with here to offer the suggestions that I might in a full edit, I can at least let you know if that's coming across or not.

Dayna: I wonder, Jennia, what are your feelings on asking for a full manuscript? Or maybe not your feelings, perhaps, but the feelings of the potential clients that you see. Because I typically don't ask for a full manuscript because in my experience, authors tend to not want to send their whole book to someone they haven't hired yet. But I feel like you get a better picture of what you're going to be working with, and thus you can give a better price, better thought to your pricing. You don't have to go back and be like, well, (clears throat) your book's actually worse than I anticipated.

Jennia: Not that we would ever say worse (laughs).

Dayna: Well, of course not! You would say it much more tactfully than that, I would hope.

Jennia: Yes. Just so everyone knows that Dayna is not directly quoting me (laughs).

Dayna: Heavens no, no... I think better with my fingers than I do with my mouth sometimes.

Jennia: Oh, no, same. So please give us some grace with this podcast. I can see the benefits for asking for it, but it is not something that I personally do, although I do know other editors who do for the reasons you outlined. One, for me, it's such an investment of time when I don't know if that's going to pay off or not. If they end up not hiring me, and I have now put in so many hours going through this manuscript and not just reading it like it might seem like we would do, but really analyzing it and seeing where the weaknesses are or where I find areas that might be more time consuming to edit. That could all be a waste of time. That's like giving away, let's say, 10 hours of work for free. When we do a sample edit that could be one hour for free. And I do know a lot of editors will say that they're going to cut it off at the one hour mark, and then that's where the sample edit is going to be complete, even if they haven't fully edited that 1000 word count. And I can understand that, because again, we are being asked to volunteer our services in a way in order to prove ourselves when we do this sample edit. So it is something for the authors to consider as well. And I do know some have asked for, like, a 2500 or a 5000 word count sample edit, and I've always explained why I don't offer that. And I do think it helps to realize that this is basically lost income for us.

Dayna: Now, I do know some editors who charge for their sample edits.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dayna: And then there are two schools of thought on that. Yes, you're paying for their time, and some editors who charge will put that fee towards the cost of the final project.

Jennia: Right.

Dayna: My feeling is, though, that if somebody comes to me to book and wants to get on my calendar, but this is January and they won't be ready until April... If I do a sample edit now and I charge them for it, I'm going to have to go over that sample again.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dayna: And it may have changed, so it doesn't feel right to charge them double for it. But at the same time, yeah, giving away my time for free—and that gets into a whole different topic, which is equitable compensation for editing, which is a pet project of mine.

Jennia: Oh, mine too (both laugh).

Dayna: Yeah, there are so many different ways that editors do things. You just have to ask. Scour their website, find out how many pages they do for a sample edit. Is the sample edit free or is it paid? Do they want your whole manuscript? Do they want just a sample? There are as many options as there are editors, really.

Jennia: Yes. So true. And I know we've talked about this a little bit before, but it really is pretty easy. If someone is just not clicking with you for whatever reason, and it could be you don't really get what you expected from the sample edit. Maybe they take longer to respond than you like. Maybe it's just not a personality mesh. It's easy enough to go find someone else who offers the same services so that you are both satisfied.

Dayna: Right. And sample edits also help. You see, editors are part of your team, your support team. And so one of the great things that a sample edit can show is what kind of person your editor will be as part of your publishing team.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dayna: Yes, you are forming a team when you hire a service provider. Now, some editors are very much just, I'll do your edit and we're done.

Jennia: Uh-huh.

Dayna: But other people, like me, love to support the author through their writing process.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dayna: So you might reach out and be like, hey, I want to hire you, here's my deposit. And boom, you are now talking with your Publishing BFF. And so I'm going to check in with you and say, hey, how are you doing with the writing? Do you need any encouragement? Do you need a body doubling or sprint time coworking where you do your thing and I do mine and we cheer each other on? Do you need a meme or something to make you laugh? And I provide those free of charge to my favorite editors too. Wink, wink, Jennia.

Jennia: I can confirm (both laugh).

Dayna: And she sends them right back!

Jennia: Oh yeah!

Dayna: Yeah, so your personality is not wrong, and you wanting to work with an editor who meshes with your personality is not wrong either.

Jennia: Mmm, I love that. Yes, I completely agree. Because, again, there's going to be even variations in how formal or informal someone is when they're speaking to you, or it might even evolve while the relationship grows and continues. And that's partially just going to be as you find a comfortable medium with each other and you see how they react to certain things, or what phrasing they like, or prefer one type of comment over another type of comment. So, for instance, I've had some authors tell me that I really don't need to provide the editorial summary anymore because the notes I leave in the document are sufficient. And that's just one example of also being adaptable. But are you going to find an editor who's adaptable to what suits you the best? And again, like you said earlier, there are so many editors out there that it's extremely likely that you'll be able to do just that. But that's exactly why the sample edit, in my opinion, is key. And it's not just for the editors being able to gauge your writing ability or how much time this project might take. But it's also so beneficial for the author. Because how else are you really going to know if they are able to deliver what you're hoping they can deliver?

Dayna: Exactly, exactly. And one of those deliverables is the style sheet.

Jennia: Yes. Well, for some types of editing, yes.

Dayna: Yes, okay. Well, Jennia, which types of edits receive a style sheet?

Jennia: Well, mostly a copy edit, because usually, I would think proofreading and anything that comes after, they're going to be looking at the style sheet that was created by the copy editor. But even before we get into a style sheet, this almost necessitates the need to bring up a style guide.

Dayna: Oh, yes. Okay, so what's the difference between a style guide and a style sheet?

Jennia: Well, a style guide is a giant brick of a book that tells you every single law about grammar that has ever been known to man or has changed throughout time, or what this particular institution believes we should or should not do with independent clauses. Do we put a hyphen here or not? And, yes, this will vary greatly (both laugh).

Dayna: And even in that style guide, notice it says style guide, not style law book, or rulebook.

Jennia: "Don't you dare break these rules" book.

Dayna: Exactly. Style guides provide a guide. They are agreed upon rules, or—it's so hard to talk about this without using rules, because they aren't necessarily rules. They're guidelines.

Jennia: Yeah, exactly. They're guidelines, they're choices that you have when you are doing something. And it might be a limited number of choices, but generally, there are not always, there are some cases where it's just, don't do this, or this is how we write this number. But for the most part, yeah, there is going to be some variance that's allowed flexibility. And, like, one book I was reading recently was talking about how, when in doubt, always make sure that you're erring on the side of readability, because this is being done for the reader's benefit. So instead of getting hung up over an inconsistency, maybe determine whether or not that inconsistency that you've just created is making it more readable or not. And some of these decisions can just feel like, great, my brain just exploded, and this is a lot to take in, but that's why you hire a copy editor.

Dayna: Right. And that flexibility that you mentioned, Jennia, that is what goes on the style sheet. When I do a line edit, I use style sheets. I find it starts there because I'm looking at word choice, I want to keep track of characters. And this information goes on my style sheet. And then that style sheet, theoretically, is passed down the line. So the person who does the copy edit and the person who does the proofread also gets that style sheet, and they use that to check the changes on the manuscript. So, for example, the word naive can be spelled with an umlaut over the eye or not. On the style sheet, if the author prefers it with the umlaut, I will mark on the style sheet "naive spelled with the umlaut." That way, when the next person comes along, they can look at the style sheet and be like, oh, okay, that's what I'm looking for, we want to be consistent throughout this document, so every time the word naive or naivete comes up, we're going to make sure they have the umlaut.

Jennia: Right.

Dayna: It ensures consistency and makes sure everybody is, quote, on the same page.

Jennia: Nice pun!

Dayna: Thank you!

Jennia: The one I see come up, in my opinion, that's the most often—and even though I tend to mostly do developmental editing or stylistic, where I combine developmental and line editing, I'll still keep track of things like character names or the one that comes up all the time. How are we going to spell "okay"?

Dayna: Oh yes.  And do we put a comma after "oh" in "Oh, God"?

Jennia: Yes, commas are ones that come up all the time. How are we going to be using commas? And are we going to be using commas as much as maybe some other people do? Because with fiction, it feels like the trend has been toward, let's just keep shedding commas until there are none left. Again, I've heard too, that can also differ by genre. That's also something to keep in mind. So, like a thriller or something that's really fast paced, because it might not seem like you're pausing that much every time you come across a comma, but there is still that pause. And so if we want to really ramp up that feeling of action and intensity, just cut a few more commas.

Dayna: Mmm, unless you're writing for audiobook and then put them in. I think, Jennia, this episode needs to be subtitled "And commas."

Jennia: (laughs) Yes. One thing I do want to say too, is that the style sheet is really helpful even when you're done writing that manuscript. Because you're going to be sending out all this other information or coming up with other information, like maybe for your marketing plan or the summary that you're going to be posting on Amazon or other retailers. Or even when you make those cute little bookmarks and postcards to hand out at events, you want to make sure that all the wording or spellings are going to line up with what is going to be presented in the manuscript.

Dayna: Oh, that is brilliant. That is so true. I think about style sheets more like, okay, well, this is a series, and so we started here. Here are the parents, here are the kids, here are their love interests, and we keep adding on each book, so dad's name stays Bob through the entire series. It doesn't change to James, you know, three books in. But using it for your other materials—and even, like, if you're doing illustrated covers, give your designer the information from your books about the characters because they're right there on your style sheet.

Jennia: Yeah. Because readers do pick up on that sort of thing. They might say, oh, it says, Richard's eyes are blue, but on this cover, they're brown. People will comment on that.

Dayna: Yeah. Like, why does she have pink hair? Her hair was green with yellow stripes.

Jennia: Yeah, that's one thing that I really love about style of sheets. And even though mine tend to be more informal, where I'm just jotting down notes to myself about, especially with fantasy or Sci-Fi or a place that maybe the setting is in a country I'm not familiar with, and so the wording might not come as naturally to me or the spelling, that you have this reference forever. And so then you can pass that along to the author, so then they have that reference forever, and they can use it for whatever needs they find come up in the future. I mean, I've even seen some of these things come up, like, at book events or something. What if you do have a moment where you blank out and you can't remember how to spell the name of your imaginary kingdom? Why not just glance down at your style sheet really fast, where you have it highlighted in your lap? It could happen, you know, nerves are a big thing.

Dayna: Right. And we've been talking about audiobooks throughout this conversation—

Jennia: Even before this conversation started!

Dayna: Yes! Well, you can give your audiobook narrator your style sheet because it will list all the names of the places that they will have to speak. It will list all the names of people who appear in your book, and, so they can see right off the bat, okay, I need you to make a recording of how we pronounce the name R-H-Y-S. Are you pronouncing it [like] "Reese"? Are you pronouncing it [like] "Rise"? Like, this could be a made-up language. How do you pronounce a word with 15 consonants and no vowels? (both chuckle)

Jennia: That's so true. Especially because, as we were saying, audiobooks are really picking up in popularity. So even if you aren't thinking right now of having an audiobook created, it might be something that you entertain at a later time. And how helpful would it be to already have this at your disposal instead of now trying to come up with it from scratch on your own and without your editor's assistance? Your editor, who's probably going to be well keyed into those names and places that might not be familiar to every single person, whereas to you, they might seem obvious simply because you came up with them.

Dayna: Yeah. And it can also be helpful if your characters speak with an accent. I've heard of multiple books where the character was not indicated to speak with an accent until the very end. And the narrator had to go back from the beginning and—

Jennia: Oh no!

Dayna: —record some of their lines because they weren't said with that accent. You know, Amy O'Malley speaks with a Japanese accent because her name might be Irish, but she was raised in Japan. So having that right there, that biographical information informs your narrator and helps them do a better job on your book.

Jennia: Oh man, that's an amazing insight, because I bet a lot of people don't even really think about this, at least not to that extent. But I'm a planner anyway. Anything that you have now that you can have created now while you're going to have your work edited anyway, why not take full advantage of it and make sure that you have whatever you need for whatever plans you might have later in your publishing journey?

Dayna: Excellent idea.

Jennia: Yay! I love having excellent ideas.

Dayna: I love being on the receiving end of those excellent ideas!

Jennia: You prompted the excellent idea (both laugh).  Well, thank you so much for being here and helping me talk about style sheets and sample edits and touching a little bit on style guides. That might be an episode we need to have in the future as well, just because there are so many different style guides. And sometimes you don't even have to use the style guide that is put out by one company or another. Just a thought.

Dayna: Oh, that would actually be excellent because there are style guides created by all sorts of organizations, not just companies.

Jennia: Mhm!

Dayna: So, to get listeners curious, we have indigenous people style guides. We have trans-journalists style guide. We have—The American Chemical Society has a really fabulous style guide.

Jennia: That is interesting. I know that the American Psychological Association has also put out their own guidelines, especially when it comes to conscious and inclusive language.

Dayna: Yeah, so a whole episode on that would be fabulous.

Jennia: Yes, because this all does affect what's going to end up on your style sheet... Well, Dayna, I am so glad you came, and I'm so glad you contributed to this conversation because, as always, you have so much information to share and you do it in such a clear and pleasant way.

Dayna: Aww, as long as it's not clear and present danger!

Jennia: Not yet.

Dayna: Oh! (both laugh)

Jennia: Well, maybe when we get to style guides, I don't know. It'll be a risky episode.

Jennia: And that's all for today. Thank you for listening, and please check out the show notes for more information. Next time we're going to be covering something that's new to this podcast: Comics. Carl Shinyama will be sharing some of his vast amount of knowledge with us about this medium. Please join me then. Thank you!