Editor and Chief Inspiration Officer Deborah Kevin discusses the publishing process and pulls the cover off the differences between traditional, hybrid, and self publishing.
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Check out Deborah's website:
https://deborahkevin.com/
Find Deborah on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/debbykevinwriter
https://www.linkedin.com/public-profile/in/deborah-kevin/
https://www.facebook.com/deborahkevinwriter
https://twitter.com/deborahkevin20
Highlander Press:
https://highlanderpressbooks.com/
Editor and Chief Inspiration Officer Deborah Kevin discusses the publishing process and pulls the cover off the differences between traditional, hybrid, and self publishing.
▬
Check out Deborah's website:
https://deborahkevin.com/
Find Deborah on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/debbykevinwriter
https://www.linkedin.com/public-profile/in/deborah-kevin/
https://www.facebook.com/deborahkevinwriter
https://twitter.com/deborahkevin20
Highlander Press:
https://highlanderpressbooks.com/
Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast for people who write, edit, read, or listen. We have Deborah Kevin joining us today, and she is the founder and Chief Inspiration Officer of Highlander Press. This is Demystifying the Publishing Process, episode two-five-three of the podcast.
Jennia: Well, hello! I'm so glad to have you here. Is there anything you want to share about yourself, or maybe define what the title of Chief Inspiration Officer includes?
Deborah: Yeah, absolutely. It's so interesting. So thank you for having me, Jennia. I'm so delighted to talk about—I'll talk about publishing 24/7 if I could.
Jennia: Same! (both laugh)
Deborah: I love books! And yeah, so a long time ago, I was in the corporate world, and I pitched a new position, and it got created, and I moved into this new position, and it was for an energy company. And the secretary came around and she said, "What's your title?" I said, "Do I get to make it up?" And she looked at me like I had six heads. And I said, "Then I want to be the transmission goddess." And she's like, "Can you do that?" And I was joking, of course. But then when I created my own company, I thought, I can call myself anything I want, and I don't want to just be a chief executive officer. I really want to provide inspiration. So I thought, that's my title.
Jennia: Oh, how fun. That probably makes just an enjoyable work culture too.
Deborah: Absolutely. You got to have fun with—I don't know, I get to play with books all day. How much more fun could life possibly be?
Jennia: Yes! Exactly. I am so on board with you on that (both laugh). Well, getting into the topic first, why do you think there is so much confusion about the publishing process?
Deborah: It's so interesting. I mean, that's such a great question, and I think a lot of it stems from most of us believing that the best way to publish is the traditional model. And so then I think the self-publishing industry sort of took off when CreateSpace came around back in, I think, 2008. And suddenly, all of these people who were frustrated by the lack of attention or opportunity within the traditional space just started publishing their books. But they didn't know enough to make themselves successful, and so self publishing got a really bad rap early. I think it's actually a fantastic way for people to publish. So there's just a ton of misinformation. I'm in a bunch of different publishing Facebook groups, and I see all the time these questions about, "Do I buy my own ISBN? Is it important to have my book edited? Is it--" you know? It's like, it's just some basics that are so crucial for people's success, regardless of how they publish.
Jennia: Right! Do you think that some of the inaccurate information comes about or is perpetuated because people do have answers that are incorrect?
Deborah: 100 percent, I mean, I get pushback all the time. The question I always ask people, regardless of where I hear them asking about publishing topics, is, "What's your goal? What is your goal with this book?" If it's super important to you to try to be a New York Times bestseller, even though that is one of the most subjective things out there—there are people who honestly feel that if they don't have that opportunity, that they aren't a legitimate author.
Jennia: Oh, wow.
Deborah: Which is really, I think, a huge mindset shift. But I do think that there's just people who don't know and they just are so desperate to get their stuff out there that there's just some basics like, you and I know, buy your own ISBNs because then you own it. It's your intellectual property. Make sure that you protect it.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: Even if you're doing independent publishing/self publishing, it doesn't mean you have to do everything yourself. And by that I mean you cannot give yourself a good haircut. So don't edit your own work and pay somebody to create a professional cover.
Jennia: I think that is excellent advice because this comes up a lot, even with marketing, that we have these hugely different skill sets, and then people then assume, well, if I do this, I'm going to have to become an expert in all of them. But that's really not the case. And there are affordable options out there, especially with marketing, where so much of it is free. And even now we're seeing that shift with medium to bigger publishers where you're still going to be asked to do a lot of those same marketing tasks. So it's not as if you're completely free from engaging in any of those just because a Big Five published your book.
Deborah: Absolutely, and I think that's a super important point to spend a little time on, is that marketing has shifted. I mean, big companies have shifted. And it's interesting, the traditional model—the core traditional model has not really changed since the late 1800s, with the exceptions of: there's fewer advances or smaller advances, there's not as much marketing support, and they've added digital and audiobooks to their portfolios. But they did that kicking and screaming back when digital books became available. It's so interesting. So I have a friend, she's a middle grade author, she's got a traditional publishing deal—and I'm not going to name the publisher—and her books have been nominated for Caldecotts and Newberry. I mean, very well received. It wasn't [until] her third book that she got a publicist assigned for and paid for by the publisher. She had to plan her own book tours, she had to plan her own speaking events at schools and libraries, and do all of her own marketing. And I always say that your book is like your baby.
Jennia: Yes!
Deborah: No one's going to love it as much as you do. And you have to be prepared to do the work to make sure that the eyeballs that are intended for it get to see it.
Jennia: Make sure it is raised right in the world (both laugh).
Deborah: Exactly!
Jennia: Only you will protect it!
Deborah: You wouldn't give birth and put your kid on the street corner and say, "We'll just see how it does (both laugh some more). Good luck, kid!
Jennia: Oh how tragic. Now we're back to that 1880s callback with the poor little orphans out on the streets.
Deborah: *imitating 1880s orphans out on the streets* "Yes, sir. May I have some more?"
Jennia: Yes, selling matches to stay warm.
Deborah: Yes! (laughs)
Jennia: Well, that's a great lead in for the next question, which is, what are the different avenues to publishing? And we just talked about two briefly, if you want to elaborate on that and what they are.
Deborah: Yeah. So I love to start with the bookends, and most people are familiar with the traditional publishing model, and there are pros and cons to each kind of avenue. So let me tell you the three avenues, and then I'll just go a little bit into each one. So the most commonly understood or semi understood is the traditional publishing model. The other end of the spectrum is self publishing/independent publishing. Those terms are used interchangeably. And then there's the Wild West of publishing in the middle that's really a hybrid publishing. And that goes anywhere from a vanity press all the way up to a mid-size publisher that acts very similarly in many ways to a traditional publisher. So those are the big buckets and pros and cons to each one. And again, it goes back to that question, what are you looking to achieve with your book?
Jennia: Would you share some pros and cons of each one?
Deborah: Sure. So traditional publishing, you do often get an advance. What an advance is, is actually an advance against future royalties. And so somebody in the back office of a traditional publisher puts on their little night shade and starts working their ten key and calculating how much they believe that they're going to pay you in royalties. For a newer author, it's not going to be a significant amount of money. But they say, "Okay, we think over the five year period that we've licensed this book, this is how much the royalties are going to be." And they'll pay in advance to the author, which has to be shared with an agent. Right? The agent has to be paid as well. And then the good news about that is you don't have to repay it. If you don't earn out your royalties, they don't dip back and say, "Hey, you didn't earn it out. You've got to pay it back." So that's actually a really nice thing. But you can't live on advances alone.
Jennia: Oh too bad.
Deborah: I know, right? (both laugh) Especially since they're getting smaller and smaller. So that's kind of a big advantage. A disadvantage, I think, is the length of time to publishing. And so you think about all the gatekeepers. You first have to write a great book, that you've got to find an agent who's willing to represent you. And that agent needs to believe in your project so much that they take your book, they use their contacts at the big publishing houses to see who would be interested. Now, if you're super lucky, you get into a bidding war because everybody wants your book. But that's pretty rare.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: And you might be lucky enough that someone will say, "Hey, this fits in our—in our catalog for three years from now. And so this is what we're looking for." Now, trends change. And you add the risk that even though they license your book, they may never actually publish your book. That happens. We saw that during COVID, actually. It's interesting. And they do provide professional graphics. They do your cover for you. There's no investment out of pocket. That's the biggest advantage.
Jennia: Right. And I do see people bring that one up a lot. That it's because they don't want to have to not only put out that money themselves, but even just the research that it would take for them to make sure that the people they're hiring are vetted and reliable and will actually deliver what they say they're going to deliver. So I can see the plus on that side too.
Deborah: Absolutely, absolutely. And the complete opposite of that: go to self publishing. And the pros and cons of that are pro: You're completely in charge. You get to make all of the decisions. But you're assuming 100 percent of the responsibility and 100 percent of the risk. That doesn't mean you necessarily need to do it. You still probably want to hire some key people. Number one, a cover designer that's professional, and number two, a really great editor, at a minimum, right?
Jennia: Yes. I completely agree with. I mean, not just because I am an editor! (both laugh)
Deborah: Right. It's really a shame because Brandon Sanderson is a great example of somebody who only self publishes, and he also only self publishes on Amazon.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: He had a Kickstarter last year to fund his own books, and it was multiples of millions of dollars. It was astounding. But he has a very dedicated fan base. He knows who he's writing for, and he markets directly to that. He turns around books very quickly, and he has what they're called, "whale readers," like, they'll read anything you publish. And we all want to be in that position.
Jennia: Yep!
Deborah: And then there's the Wild West, and you brought up a really good point, like, how do you know if the publisher that you're working with is legitimate, that they have your best interest in mind? Because there are people out there who will take your money and run. And so with a hybrid publishing, there is an investment of some sort from the author, but there's an investment also if you're self publishing. So you've got to look at it that way as well. There's a great organization called the Independent Book Publishers Association. And that's a great place to start if you're looking for an independent publisher, because they have to sign an agreement that they're going to pay royalties that are higher than a traditional publisher, and they have to meet certain qualifications, and if they don't, and there's any kind of complaint, they get booted out, and that's kind of a big deal.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: There's education for publishers, and so that's one of the things that I think is really important. The other is: ask people, "Who have you worked with? Who do you have a good experience with?" Look at people's websites. Interview people.
Jennia: Yes. I feel like you get so much more information than you do even looking at one of those sites like that, or Writer Beware, because there might be an inkling that something is not on the up and up. But when you start talking to some of the actual authors who work there, and then they tell you something, and perhaps it is just in confidence, but you get a much better picture of what it's really like and what you'll really be dealing with.
Deborah: Absolutely. And the willingness of someone to have a chat with you. Like, what we do is, I'm all about energy exchange, because you're an editor as well, so you know that when someone trusts you with their baby, you're all up in their business, and it's an energetic exchange. And so there's got to be a level of trust back and forth, and respect both ways.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: And so that's really important to me as a publisher and as an editor. And not everybody is going to work with my company, and that's okay, actually. I will refer them to someone who would be a better fit. I love doing that if it's not a good fit for us. Because at the end of the day, I just want great books to be published, and if we're not doing it, I still want great books to be published.
Jennia: Yeah. And who doesn't benefit from that?
Deborah: Exactly.
Jennia: So talking a little bit about that too, and knowing if it's a good fit or not. So how can authors do some of that legwork on their own to determine, maybe even before they begin querying this place or getting in touch with them, if it is going to be a good fit for them?
Deborah: Another great question. I feel like, follow people's social media, publishers' social media, really look at the quality of the work that they're putting out.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: Oftentimes they'll have their authors tagged in the posts... you know, contact that author, look at what they're doing. What's the sensibility of those people? You can tell a lot by the quality of what somebody is putting out. That's the quality of the work that they're going to put out. And then don't be afraid to slide into one of those authors DMs and say, "Hey, I'm considering working with your publisher. Would you have a coffee chat with me to tell me the pros and cons?" Look at people's testimonials. And then you brought up author publishing [Writer Beware], and see what's out there. There's a lot of information. Amazon's great for doing research, look at some of the top lists and see who are the publishers on that list, and then look at the quality of those books as well.
Jennia: I think even on the flip side, you can look up the books that are being put out by those publishers you're interested in and seeing how they're ranking. Because some of them, for instance, just when I've done some of my own background research for different authors I've worked with, some of the books aren't ranking at all, which means they're not selling.
Deborah: Exactly. That's a great point. And we talked about this very early on in our conversation. It's about the marketing, right? So many people think that, oh, I've written a book and I'm done. That's really the first of five big steps to getting your book in front of people. One is write a great book. Two is have it professionally edited. Three is then it gets published. So that's only step three of five. And then you have your book launch, your book birthday, which is a really big marketing effort. But then it's the ongoing marketing that is tremendously important that most people are, they're exhausted, and so they just put it aside, and they don't know how to market without being an "askhole."
Jennia: Right, yes. It can feel a bit like you're badgering people. "Please share this for me. Can you please let me post on your blog? Would you be willing to read and review my book?" Right. And I can see how, especially if you are an introvert, that just might feel like it's going against every single grain of your being. But it is important to get out there and share in whatever way you're comfortable.
Deborah: Well, and I love that you brought up all the things that the author needs. So here's the way I flip marketing with the authors that we work with is like, you've made your book about you. If that's the way you're marketing, really think about what's this in terms of who your readers are and, whether it's fiction or nonfiction or a children's book, what do they need? And then how can you use what you have to be of service to them so that it's a win-win situation and it doesn't feel so ask-y.
Jennia: Or sales-y. Yeah, you don't want to have that car salesman mentality when you're going out there (both laugh).
Deborah: Exactly!
Jennia: *imitating comedic salesman* "If I can get ten people to sign up for these encyclopedias..."
Deborah: (laughs) *continues the salesman bit* "And that's not all!"
Jennia: "Great! But wait, there's more!"
Deborah: "If you act now..." (both laugh) Yeah, so gross.
Jennia: Yeah, so just like that in an infomercial. (both laugh)
Deborah: Exactly. *finishing bit* "We'll throw in these ginsu knives..."
Jennia: Man (laughs harder).
Deborah: I'm dating myself now.
Jennia: I remember those days... when they would actually come door to door (both laugh). Thankfully, authors don't have to do that.
Deborah: Right, exactly. And the other thing that I think is super important is: find yourself a community of other authors who will support and encourage you, and they love your book as much as they love you. And it's not a competition. It's a collaboration.
Jennia: Yes, exactly! I say that all the time, so I'm so—it just makes me feel so good to hear someone else say it (both laugh).
Deborah: So important, yeah.
Jennia: Right, because as readers, depending on how often they read, it's not as if they're going to read just your book and only your books. So, yeah, they want to find people who are similar to you and read those books as well. It's not as if they bought Book A and now there's no room for Book B, that's not really how it works.
Deborah: Exactly, I used to say to my kids, if you think about love as a candle, when you light another candle with it, it doesn't diminish the wick of the one candle or the light, it just spreads the light. So the books are the same way, right? You can never have too many, in my opinion.
Jennia: I agree (both laugh).
Deborah: If you could see my to-be-read pile, you'd know that that's true.
Jennia: Yeah, I might veer my camera over to the side, so you can see the stacks of books on the windowsill (both laugh harder).
Deborah: I actually bought where we live, our apartment, because it had a library. I've always wanted a library. And I'm like—(laughs)
Jennia: Yeah, that's why we bought this house! (laughs) See, that's exactly why there's not competition. We want to have all the books.
Deborah: Exactly. And we want them to be great. I don't ever want to work with an author that I'm like, "Yeah, I feel uncomfortable publishing this book," because I want them to be successful. Like, not because it helps Highlander Press, which it does, but because I want them to be successful.
Jennia: Right!
Deborah: And it's a growing sense of energy in the world, and positivity, and I don't know, there's just spreading the light.
Jennia: Yeah. And I just feel too, when you have that positive community aspect to it, you feel better even as you approach those stressful moments in publishing. Because you already know that you have people who support you and are there to help you and believe in you. So it's not as if you're going out there all alone and floating in the abyss, waiting for someone to throw you a lifeline. You already have that lifeline.
Deborah: Right. It's funny, I always say to our authors, "This is not the field of dreams. Just because you write it doesn't mean that people will find you." That's one. And then the second is, the closer you get to your publication date—it doesn't matter whether it's your first, your 70th, or whatever—there are going to be gremlins that show up and you're going to become hyper-fixated on one comment on page 37, paragraph three that we need to update and we need to fix this and we need to do that. Surround yourself with people who can say, "It's okay--
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: --we've got you. You have a great book. Trust us." So, yeah, the community cannot be overstated.
Jennia: Talking more about community, do you have any places that you recommend authors check out if they want to also have this sense of community? Or places where they can safely ask questions if they have more to ask about publishing?
Deborah: So I'm on TikTok, that's one thing. And I publish all kinds of little videos, just talking about marketing and publishing tips, things that people can consider. So that's one place. We actually have an online author academy community where people can come and join. We have open marketing calls where anybody who's part of our community can ask marketing questions and we'll answer them. I bring in guest speakers. We have some free classes in there as well, like how to un-suckify your bio. Because most authors are very stiff, then they want to know all the things. It's like, that's not what people want when they're looking at a book cover. Right. They want to know who you are and why you wrote this book. So that's one. There are so many Facebook groups out there as well.
Jennia: Mhm.
Deborah: I would just say, dip your toe in and see what feels aligned to you. I have gone into communities and just sort of been a fly on the wall. Honestly, it's been great because I can see what people are asking, and then I'm like, oh, I can help here, and I'll create content to serve what people actually are asking about.
Jennia: And even just the tone of the answers and how people interact with one another and what interaction styles are allowed versus not allowed, because sometimes those aggressive answers are allowed to continue for a while. And maybe that's not really your cup of tea and you prefer something that's a little more on the helpful side.
Deborah: Yeah. And I'll say a couple other things too is: look for writing communities in your area. Like, I'm part of the Eastern Shore Writers Community and the Baltimore Community, which is where we're based. I'm part of my grad school writing community. We still have writing getaways and things like that. So really just look for people who can support you, be beta readers, give you honest, critical feedback, where it's a give and take, and so you can thrive in that arena.
Jennia: Well, is there anything you want to share about Highlander Press before we end? Maybe what you do accept and don't accept the type of authors that you're looking for?
Deborah: Oh, sure. Thank you for that. We actually are currently accepting fiction, nonfiction, and children's books. We actually have, I think, in 2024, we have so far, 15 books on our docket to come out this year. For me, again, it's the energetic exchange. Anybody can do a submission. We have a formal submission process on our website, and it's right on our homepage, just click the submissions. Things that we don't accept are erotica. I'm not a big fan of books that we're uncomfortable with only because I don't think we can market them well just because of our energy. But I have lots of other publishing friends, I have a master's degree in publishing. All of my cohort and the continuing cohort people are specialty in Sci-Fi and fantasy and fill in the blank. So if we're not the right fit and it's a good book, I'll make sure to connect the author. So, our submission guidelines are, it's a form that you fill out. You submit ten pages. We guarantee—I think it's really important to close the energetic loops, I read everything, or one of our editors reads, and we provide feedback.
Jennia: I'm going to guess it's personalized feedback. It's not a form letter.
Deborah: No, it is definitely not! I don't believe in that, and I don't believe in people.
Jennia: You didn't seem the type who would be! (both laugh)
Deborah: Again, it goes back to the energy exchange, right? And here's a little dirty secret. I provide feedback because I want to see how the feedback is received.
Jennia: Oooh! I love that.
Deborah: And I want them to see our editing styles, because, again, it needs to be aligned.
Jennia: So, so true!
Deborah: Yeah, that works both ways. I want it to be of service to them and say, "Here's what's working. Here's what I loved. Here's what you might consider." But I want to see how that is received.
Jennia: Mm, that is so good. I mean, that's just such a good idea.
Deborah: We're smaller as a result, but I feel very much aligned to that.
Jennia: But that's when you get that personal touch throughout the publishing process instead of feeling like you're just another piece on the assembly line.
Deborah: Exactly.
Jennia: That is just something that I wholeheartedly enjoy and approve of completely (both laugh).
Deborah: Thank you!
Jennia: Thank you again for coming and for also giving our listeners all these insights and this much needed clarity when it comes to the publishing process. This was just very enjoyable.
Deborah: I love talking with you! Thank you so much, Jennia. It was just a delight.
Jennia: Aw, I'm glad. Thank you!
Jennia: And that's all for today. Thank you for listening, and please check out the show notes for more information. Please join me next week as Maribeth Decker shares how to write about a specific kind of grief. Thank you again!