Dayna Reidenouer is back talking about book coaching, what it is, what they do, and if you should hire one.
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Dayna's site
https://www.yourpublishingbff.com/
Dayna's Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/yourpublishingbff
Dayna Reidenouer is back talking about book coaching, what it is, what they do, and if you should hire one.
▬
Dayna's site
https://www.yourpublishingbff.com/
Dayna's Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/yourpublishingbff
Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast for people who write, edit, read, or listen. It's another episode of Editing Essentials. And this time we're going to be looking at book coaching and answering questions like, what is a book coach? What do they do, how can they help me? And when should I hire one? Joining me is talented editor and my very close friend, Dayna Reidenouer. This is Editing Essentials number ten, What is a Book Coach?
Jennia: Well, lovely to have you here, as always.
Dayna: Thank you, Jennia! And I appreciate the upgrade to talented editor. (both laugh)
Jennia: You're welcome. I'm trying to vary my wording, as any editor would.
Dayna: Oh, yeah, no more repetition.
Jennia: Exactly. So I know that you also do book coaching, which is exactly why that makes you an ideal participant for this conversation, because I have a feeling that even though what we do is very similar, there's probably going to be some differences too, and what we provide, or even how we have a coaching session. But first, how would you define a book coach?
Dayna: Oh, that's a really good question. Well, they're also known by the name story coach or writing coach.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: They help an author or group of authors create the book. Sometimes a person will have an idea and they don't know how to turn it into a book. So a book coach could actually start there, or a book coach could help a person who maybe they've started a project and they don't know how to finish it. And so that book coach will ask good questions to help the author think through what might come next.
Jennia: Yeah, I would agree with all of that. And so when I provide coaching services, I sometimes get a story that isn't even in manuscript form yet something that might be partway there and then something has brought them to a stop. They've stalled, they don't know how to continue. And then I've also seen complete manuscripts where maybe someone has pointed out to them, "There's just something here that's not working," and they don't know what, and they realize it might need more of an overhaul than what an editor can provide. So in that way, I think that also helps differentiate between an editor and a book coach, that your manuscript really can be at any stage of completion when you come to a book coach, and that could even include a manuscript that's just ideas floating in your head and you don't know yet how to piece them all together.
Dayna: The fascinating thing, I was going to differentiate between a book coach and a developmental editor as one writes a response and the other one has more of a dialogue, but that's not the case. There are book coaches who communicate solely through a shared Google Doc or they email their clients during the week. So the options are varied. Like, yeah, if you prefer one style of communication and learning because really book coaching is strongly educational.
Jennia: Yes.
Dayna: You know, if you prefer to read information to learn, then find a person who does their coaching that way. Others you like the social aspect, the live communication, the chatting, you know, look for someone who offers coaching that direction.
Jennia: Yeah. So I think part of it too is that there can be some crossover with developmental editing and a book coach, because sometimes the advice or the suggestions or even the extra resources that we're providing are going to be very similar. But at least when I do it, it's the level of detail that we get into. So book coaching, for instance, we might have a one-on-one on long meeting where screen share is enabled and I'm walking them through a section in order to show them exactly what I'm talking about. And so we can apply some of those concepts and principles we're talking about. Whereas with the developmental edit it might just be bullet points with areas to work on and then explanations, but it's not going to be that same level of really getting in there and digging into it and showing you exactly what I'm talking about.
Dayna: Yeah, I think with coaching a lot of times you have more time—
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: —to spend digging into issues and how to develop them. Or you can focus on specific tiny areas. Whereas with developmental editing I feel like yes, you do get some specificity, but it's usually not so granular.
Jennia: Yeah, I agree with that too. So like with a lot of my coaching clients, I tend to give homework at the end of our sessions. So it might be something like we've just worked on dialogue. So maybe take this scene from page whatever and then rework it by applying everything we've discussed today. And then we can also do a comparison of the original dialogue to this updated dialogue. And we can see what differences that we see and the effect of those differences.
Dayna: Mhm.
Jennia: But with developmental editing there just really isn't the time for that because you are taking so much time just going through this complete manuscript and looking at that, you know, the forest view instead of the trees view. But book coaching does a little bit of both.
Dayna: Mhm. Yeah, with my book coaching, sometimes our calls talk about the skeleton of the book, the plot basics. And then there are other times where we just like go down to the cellular level. Like sometimes I feel like I'm a line editor during our book coaching calls. But what's really great is seeing them the next week, how clients take that advice and that information about how, you know, word choice and use that in the next section that they write.
Jennia: Exactly.
Dayna: So they can build on what they're learning.
Jennia: Yes. It's kind of like that saying about, you know, teach a man to fish versus just giving him the fish. It's a little bit like that with book coaching and then writing, being able to exactly what you said, that eventually the idea of being, hopefully they won't need a book coach anymore because they've learned so much from you, and then they've been able to take that and use it with anything else they write afterwards.
Dayna: Yes, that is exactly the hope.
Jennia: Yes. So when you have a coaching session, what does that typically look like for you?
Dayna: Usually the client sends me their manuscripts beforehand—
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: —right before we meet. So sometimes I have time to read it before we get together and other times I don't. Essentially like whether I get to pre read or not we spend time going through, it's usually a chapter. We spend time going through that and exploring how this chapter, this next installment, how this helps the client get to their goal, whether it's adding attention to the story or maybe they were trying to use this kind of plot device. And sometimes it involves me saying, "Oh, well, let me quick pull a good article—"
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: "—about this for you so that, you know, when you are at home, on your own time, you can read that article, use that article to write your next chapter or revise this current one." I have way too many reference books next to my desk and on my desk.
Jennia: Don't we all! (Jennia laughs)
Dayna: Honestly, like, we could do a whole segment on resources that we find and we'd probably spend the first half hour talking about the various thesauruses and why they are an excellent tool.
Jennia: Perfect. Yeah, sometimes when I'm doing picture book editing, I'll have a stack of picture books next to me so I can hold them up on camera when I'm talking about different things. So I might say examples of what you can leave to the illustrations and I'll have pictures ready to show them, "See how this isn't described. But you know, they're in this place. Leave it all to the illustration," just as an example. But yeah, I like to do what I call manuscript triage when I get it. So I look at, okay, they want to touch on this, this and this. What's most important for this first hour or these first few sessions? What do we really need that's going to have a carryover effect into everything else we touch on? Maybe there are some basic writing skills that could be strengthened before we even worry about structure and characterization or anything else. Just because, again, that's going to have that ripple effect where it's going to strengthen everything in the manuscript once that's touched on.
Dayna: I feel like during that hour that we meet, I put on my teacher hat.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: Because I feel like with editing, I'm working with the manuscript.
Jennia: Yes.
Dayna: And yes, I provide education through that. But during a coaching session, I feel like my goal is educating the author.
Jennia: Ooh so well said. Yes, exactly.
Dayna: Identifying where their strengths and weaknesses are and helping to bolster areas where they might not be terribly strong.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: It's really fun for an hour. (Jennia laughs) I don't think I'd want to be in a classroom all day. So coaching allows me to do the education part.
Jennia: It's just another way to use our editing skills and in a way that we don't normally get to employ them. I think a lot of that is just because, and we talk about this all the time, that we are home alone for the most part, working. And so when you get that little bit of socialization or talking to a real person and getting their feedback in real time with the information that you're providing them with, it also has a little bit of that boost, you know. Like having your hard work rewarded just based off of them showing their appreciation or even just seeing that they're growing and how they're able to do it. That's rewarding too.
Dayna: Mhm. One of the cool things about the way that I do editing is, yes, we have that face-to-face meeting once a week, but the relationship doesn't stop there. My clients and I, we follow each other on Instagram. We're friends on Facebook, maybe. I love memes and they love memes. I'm on a lot of mailing lists, and so if I receive notice of a class or a conference that might be of interest to my clients, I forward it to them. I try to be a positive presence in their lives so they don't feel the loneliness of running an author business so acutely.
Jennia: Yeah. And that is what even what some of the book coaching definitions say is included in book coaching, that it isn't just the writing alone, it's every step of the publishing process. And really that knowledge about events and classes and webinars is all part of it. And I think part of it too, at least with what I have found is that coaching clients are more likely to come to me when they're having some of these negative thoughts or self-doubt about their writing ability or the work ahead of them. And maybe that's just because they see us in that position of here is someone who is side by side helping me, not so much a professional that I sent this manuscript to, and I'll talk to them again in a month. So we do seem to have at least a tighter, closer relationship during that coaching period. And I think that's what makes them feel more open with sharing some of those feelings. But that's also what we're there for. You know, we know this is common, and I think just hearing it's common sometimes can be helpful. We're there to tell you again, "You're on track, you're doing okay. You don't need to feel this way." I mean, again, it's so common, so it's hard to tell them not to. It's just part of the game almost.
Dayna: Yeah. And I think sometimes, because we've been at this so long and we are such avid readers and students ourselves—
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: —we can red flags or yellow flags in a manuscript that someone who's new to the process might not see.
Jennia: Yes, that's true.
Dayna: We can say, "Hey, you're at Step A, but we have seen people also approach Step A in a similar manner and they have wound up at Step H... and it's a very bad place.
Jennia: Right.
Dayna: So how are you going to avoid winding up there? How are you going to choose a different way, possibly a healthier way, to proceed from here?
Jennia: I think that's another reason why book coaching, if you hire one, and I've also seen this advertised as author resource services—
Dayna: Mmm.
Jennia: —who can help you with each of these different steps with publishing because there is so much that you'd really benefit from doing early on, where I've seen people wait too long to do it. Marketing is a key example. You know, they wait until the book is out to do any marketing, not months beforehand. That's really the biggest one I see. Or even lining up ARC readers or anything of the type. Although of my coaching doesn't usually go in that direction. I'm primarily working with a manuscript or pre-manuscript, but I do know there are book coaches out there who specialize in that as well. Or maybe just that even.
Dayna: Mhm. Well, and I think too, like, I mean, you plot your book, you can also plot your publishing process.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: There are quite a few services that provide frameworks to write and release a book within, like a year or even less than a year... it can be done. The nice thing about a book coach is that they can tailor that process to you and to what you can do and, you know, what your circumstances allow.
Jennia: Right. And even break it down for you too, so you're not overwhelmed with this massive checklist all at once. And that goes into another service that many book coaches provide, which is accountability. Because we will be checking in with you, we will be looking at where you're at so far. Did you maybe get behind this week? How can we help you so we can bundle those other items into that checklist for you as well and do the same thing with accountability there. How are you doing with finding a cover designer? How are you doing with finding an illustrator? Do you have ideas of what you want your illustrations to look like? Do you have ideas of what you want your cover to look like? Again, because they're going to need all that information when they go to these other providers, but they might not have realized that beforehand.
Dayna: Mhm. And sometimes it's just really good to have someone you can trust to give you a second opinion.
Jennia: Yes, I've done that quite a few times with book covers.
Dayna: Right. Like how many of us actually have people in our lives who know our industries and our genres thoroughly and can give an educated perspective?
Jennia: Yeah. Speaking of, when you're looking for a book coach, make sure that they do specialize in the genre you're writing in because you have to have such a deep, ingrained level of knowledge about that genre in order to really help when you're at that early stage.
Dayna: Right. Genre conventions, they aren't just meetings of people.
Jennia: Right? Like knowing the difference between a love story versus happily ever after, how a thriller might typically end versus a mystery. These things matter. But if the person you're looking at or a book coach doesn't specialize in that genre, they might not realize that, and now your ex—reader expectations have all just been blown out of the water, and that is not a good thing.
Dayna: Very true. Well, Jennia, one of the things you said at the beginning was that we were going to talk about choosing a book coach. So you touched on one thing there. What are some other things that you want potential clients to be evaluating when they approach you or when they're even considering approaching you about book coaching?
Jennia: Well, knowing what the deliverables are, which I know we talk about with editors too, but it might be even more important with book coaching. So if you perhaps think that there's going to be ghost writing involved or some co-authoring or that they're going to be making these changes directly to the manuscript for you. Make sure you know all of that ahead of time and figure out what they're going to be doing and how they're going to be helping you. Also the way they're going to be helping you. You might be someone who prefers only speaking on the phone. Well, what if they only do it over Zoom? That's something too that you might want to figure out. And then if they do require Zoom, ask why that is. Are you going to be doing the screen share feature? Is there some other reason? How do they benefit from having video over voice only? I also like to let them know what a typical session looks like for me because again, that's going to line up with what you are or are not looking for, what you are or are not hoping to get out of it. And I would suggest you ask those same questions of anyone that you're considering for a book coach.
Dayna: Those are good things to look at.
Jennia: And we've said with editors too, that personality matters, but it probably does matter more when you do have a book coach, because it is a more intimate working relationship. You are going to be working with them directly, one on one, for a much longer period of time than you would be with an editor, where your communication might be limited to a few emails back and forth. And so again, if your personalities just are not clicking, even if they're giving you all the information you need, it might not be the same positive experience it could be if your personalities line up.
Dayna: Yeah. I think you should look forward to your meetings with your book coach.
Jennia: Yes.
Dayna: Shouldn't be nervous or anxious or dreading it.
Jennia: Well hopefully not. You might anyway, just because again, that does seem to be a common feeling when it comes to writing and sharing our writing. But yeah, there's that extra level of vulnerability because we talk about that removal when we're behind a screen. And so we do see that a little bit even with email, we're able to even maybe, perhaps pull back and think about what we want to write. Let's say that our emotions are really strong when we first get that email with, you know, all the red lines and we have to take a moment to compose ourselves before we draft our reply. But when you have that immediate reaction to something and you're working with them in real time, even if it's just a micro-expression showing you can't fully buffer it.
Dayna: Right.
Jennia: Which is another reason why personality is going to be so key, because you need to make sure that you're with someone, one you can trust them with your feelings and your work, but that they're going to respect you in a way that makes you feel like you are valued for however you've acted and they're not going to put you down for it, ignore it, if that's something that you don't want ignored, or so on.
Dayna: Yeah, like your coach should be building you up, not tearing you down. And if you leave a coaching session feeling really discouraged... Well, first—first evaluate, "Okay is this manuscript and this concept really as potentially unsuccessful as this coach thinks it might be?" Okay, then maybe let's try something else.
Jennia: Right.
Dayna: That's one thing. But if they are making you second guess who you are as a person, and the kinds of things that you are interested, the kinds of things you like to read, the kinds of things you like to write. If you're feeling like, oh, you're a bad person afterwards, that person is not the coach for you. It is okay to fire your coach and look for someone else.
Jennia: Well, so before they even get to a coach, our last question that I had was, how do you know when to look for a book coach? Because there is, again, there's going to be some of that overlap sometimes between what you might get out of a book coaching session and what you might get out of a heavy developmental edit. So how do you know then?
Dayna: You know, I've heard of people hiring book coaches to help them work through line and copy edits just to help them understand what changes were made and why.
Jennia: Oh, I can see that being really beneficial.
Dayna: Yeah, I think we kind of have this idea that it's all—coaching is all about the beginning. Like how do you structure a story? How do you develop ideas, themes, and plots? And how do you, you know, get yourself through that first rough draft?
Jennia: Yeah, you're so right. I didn't—see, I didn't really think about that so much just because it's exactly like what you're saying. We almost always focus on those big picture pieces.
Dayna: Yeah. So I think hiring a book coach[es] can be helpful if you don't have a critique group, if you don't have a community of writers around you, if you have exhausted your, you know, resource books and websites.
Jennia: Yeah.
Dayna: If you need external motivation, if you need accountability. Like, that's really when you can look for a coach, for a publishing partner, as it were.
Jennia: Mhm. So good. Yeah, I've had some authors who were self-aware enough that they finished a manuscript and they realized, "This really is not at the level that I needed to be at." Because part of that too is that a developmental edit can only do so much and point out so much that you could change to strengthen your story. And so then if you don't have the added help from a book coach, you might not really be getting that manuscript up to its full potential. Again, just because it's anything like where you skip a step, you know, and you think like, eh, you know, I'll go ahead and throw this in the oven for ten minutes less than it says it'll be okay. It might still be okay, but it's not going to be where it could have been. And I think it's really similar to that. You know how when you're making lasagna and then it has to rest for an hour? You could eat the lasagna like right away when it comes out of the oven, and it might not be the same culinary experience that it might have been if you'd gone ahead and waited for everything to settle and solidify. And it's sort of like that when you skip a step in writing or editing. It's still going to be okay, but it could have been amazing. And I think it's the same thing like if you needed a book coach and then you skipped a book coach and you just went straight into editing.
Dayna: Mmm, mhm.
Jennia: But I would say it's harder for people to realize when they need a book coach versus when they don't. And that's partially just because we aren't usually the best judge of our own work. So that's exactly why I completely agree with what you said earlier about if a critique partner, or another reader, or someone else who's in a writing group brings something up and says, "Hey, I don't think this is working," then you might get the hint that you might want to look for a book coach. But I think also it can be helpful if, for instance, you have an idea and you just don't know how to get it on paper.
Dayna: Mhm. Are there better places than others to find book coaches?
Jennia: The only thing I can think of is looking up the EFA directory because I know that you can select for book coaches there. You can also just type into any search engine "book coach" and then put in your genre. But I always still look those people up and make sure the testimonials check out. You can also go to one of the many online Facebook writing groups because people there are pretty quick to answer and give recommendations as well.
Dayna: Good deal.
Jennia: Do you have any final thoughts you want to share about book coaching?
Dayna: We've talked a lot about coaching being this long-term relationship, but a lot of people in this industry who offer these services will meet with you for an hour.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: Like a one-off session, because maybe you don't have a big issue to work through. Maybe everything's fine, but you would really like a professional's opinion or perspective on one thing. You can do just one session
Jennia: That you can! (laughs)
Dayna: So maybe you can't afford a whole series of book coaching sessions.
Jennia: Mhm.
Dayna: But maybe one or two will be enough to help you make the progress that you've been wanting to make.
Jennia: Ahh, perfect. Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up because that's so true. It's like getting that one-on-one webinar of exactly what you need to have covered.
Dayna: Yes, exactly.
Jennia: Well, thank you.
Jennia: And that's all for today! Thank you for listening, and please check out the show notes for more information. And then please join me next week when author, web developer, and Asana pro Bastien Siebman is going to be here to tell us about minimalism and the creative process. Thanks again, bye!