Author and podcaster Richie Billing talks all things fantasy--how it's defined, the sub genres, and what you should take into consideration about worldbuilding and the characters.
▬
Check out Richie's website:
https://richiebilling.com/
Listen to The Fantasy Writers' Toolshed Podcast:
https://richiebilling.com/the-fantasy-writers-toolshed-podcast
Find Richie on all platforms:
https://linktr.ee/richiebilling
Author and podcaster Richie Billing talks all things fantasy--how it's defined, the sub genres, and what you should take into consideration about worldbuilding and the characters.
▬
Check out Richie's website:
https://richiebilling.com/
Listen to The Fantasy Writers' Toolshed Podcast:
https://richiebilling.com/the-fantasy-writers-toolshed-podcast
Find Richie on all platforms:
https://linktr.ee/richiebilling
Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Author and podcaster Richie Billing is going to walk us through some questions about the fantasy genre, such as how it's defined, what are some of the subgenres, and what considerations to take into account when it comes to world building and creating characters. This is "What is Fantasy?"
Jennia: Well, thank you for being here. So nice to talk to you, as always.
Richie: Thank you very much for having me!
Jennia: Mhm! If you want to tell listeners a little bit about you and how you got into fantasy.
Richie: Yeah, I suppose I've always been into fantasy. I was one of the kids who grew up with Harry Potter books when they were all coming out, and then when I was about ten or eleven, Lord of the Rings came out in the cinemas. So they were pretty significant cultural things, I think that kind of shaped what I was interested in later in life. But I never really wanted to be a writer. It's not something that I ever, like, had a passion for. When I was growing up, I kind of discovered that I liked, like, writing-based projects when I was in university doing essays (both laugh). Boring legal essays. But when I finished, I didn't have anything like, to occupy my mind and to like, work towards. And I was a bit of a drifter at that time. I didn't really know what to do with myself. I was working as a lawyer, but I wasn't enjoying it. And I also was reading a lot of fantasy books again. Like, I'd stopped reading fantasy books for about five or six years, and I got back into it with, like, Game of Thrones—
Jennia: Oh yeah.
Richie: —The Riftwar Saga as well, and a few other books like James Barclay's Chronicles of the Raven. So just like different kinds of fantasy, and just sort of sparked the desire in me to give to others what these books have given me. And that sort of—once I started writing stories and jotting down ideas and stuff like that, I was really loving it. And just the idea of creating things that other people enjoy that sort of inspired me to keep going and I've never really stopped.
Jennia: That's such a good inspiration—it's such a selfless inspiration too. It's not, "Oh, I want to be world famous for my world building" or, you know, have some award winning novels. No, that you want to give back the same joy to others is just so very sweet (Richie laughs). So getting into fantasy, though, how would you define it? Because there do seem to still be a lot of stereotypes that fantasy always encompasses this type of world where there's magic and then it's in some medieval type setting. And that really overlooks a lot of what fantasy is now.
Richie: Yeah, definitely. It's such a broad genre now. Like, I don't really write a lot of fantasy that has magic in it. I've always thought to be more character-focused. But I think if in terms of what you're looking... You're looking for something—people, generally go to the setting, like the world building. Like, if it's set in a different world or a unique world, then you can pretty much categorize it as fantasy. But even stories like Harry Potter, which is sort of semi- -sort-of-our-world, semi-magical world, it's—the setting's not that pivotal a feature. So I think it's more than that. You do have to look at other things, like magic systems and also what kind of subjects are covered. Like what kind of themes. So, like, good versus evil is a massive one in fantasy. I think every fantasy story touches on good versus evil at some point.
Jennia: It does seem like that (Jennia laughs).
Richie: Yeah, but I love it. That's what seems to be quite synonymous with the fantasy genre. These are the bad guys, these are good guys, and I love that. So if it's in every story, I don't think you can have a story that doesn't have it because people won't like it.
Jennia: It does seem to touch on almost like this deep human need for justice. You know, that we want to see good prevail every time. And I think that's one thing that makes fantasy so appealing, because so often we don't have that conclusion where good is going to triumph, but we know that it will in a fantasy novel or a fantasy series.
Richie: Yeah, unless it's dark fantasy.
Jennia: Right, well . . . (both laugh).
Richie: Everything's grim. Grim-dark as well. Like there's all these different niches. And that's what makes it interesting is because it's evolving all the time. Like, I was chatting to my friend the other day and he was like, "How would you define yours?" Because I've just written a novella, which is—it's about a revolution. It's also a bit of a critique of capitalism. And it's set in a fantasy world. So it was like, how the hell are you even going to define that? So I says, "I suppose it's sort of like political fantasy." So is that like a new genre? (laughs) Sub genre?
Jennia: No, no. I mean, Alice in Wonderland might be considered political fantasy if we're really going to start examining it.
Richie: Yeah, exactly. So new things can pop up all the time. And that's what the great thing about fantasy is. It's very sort of liberating.
Jennia: Yeah. And it seems very adaptable too, because you really could just take any sort of criteria or any sort of theme and then you can somehow make it fit that fantasy setting or the fantasy world building.
Richie: You can play a lot with setting and you can zoom right in to maybe a town, a village, or even like a city. Or you can have quite an expansive story that spans continents. And we were chatting, obviously, Dune 2 has just come out. So we were chatting in the office about the other books in the series, how the director's refusing to do more than the next book because apparently it just gets really weird and it starts spanning, like, thousands of years and characters are getting brought back to life. So, yeah, you can do anything you want (laughs).
Jennia: There really are no limits.
Richie: Yeah.
Jennia: So you talked about magic systems a little bit. So for people who aren't familiar with what exactly a magic system is, how would you explain that?
Richie: So there's different types of magic systems, but I think by and large, it's a sort of part of the story that is probably more aligned to the fantasy side. So you might have characters who have the ability to cast spells, heal characters, enchant weapons, talk with animals. There's like all different types of magic. I suppose it always falls on a spectrum. Sometimes it's in the background of the story, sometimes it's heavily woven into it. And generally it all comes down to the characters that you've got. If one of your characters is a wizard, for example, you're going to need to talk about the magic system at some point, I imagine. But there are different types. So you have, like, a hard magic system, which means that the rules surrounding the magic are quite stringently defined. So generally there's a cost to using magic. You'll understand the limitations and what, when, and how someone can use magic. So that's quite cool. And then you have a soft magic system, which is the opposite. It's just kind of like, "Oh, it's fantasy. You can do what you like." It doesn't need to be explained. I think that someone gave me a good explanation once. So if you were looking at Star Wars, which is arguably a science fantasy,
Jennia: Right (laughs).
Richie: Episodes four, five and six, the Force isn't defined, it's just kind of there. And people say that's soft magic. And then episodes one, two and three, they start going on about, like, Midi-chlorians and whatever they're called and trying to define what the Force is. And that will be more of a hard magic system. So they're quite two contrasting approaches, you could say.
Jennia: That's a good example just because I think so many people, even if they feel maybe perhaps they aren't really that much into Sci-Fi or fantasy, they're probably at least familiar with Star Wars and understand how the Force works throughout it. But yeah, I love that you said that it's character-based a lot of time, because that's so true, in my opinion. Especially because if someone just suddenly develops magic and they don't understand why. That character, for instance, isn't really going to understand all the background behind it or why it works the way it does, or even maybe why they have magic. And if anyone else has magic, it's more of that trial and error, "let's see what I can do" sort of thing. And then establishing the rules through that character's growing understanding of it versus something like Star Wars, where it is an integral part of the entire world and people are aware of it and maybe have a better idea of how it works and why.
Richie: Nice.
Jennia: So when you're writing a fantasy story or when you are guiding someone else who's looking for advice and they ask where they should start and they bring up, "Should I begin with my magic system, the world building, the setting, or should I start with my character?", what do you usually recommend?
Richie: It's a hard question to answer because everyone is different. But I think with fantasy, if you're quit—quite set on it being in a different world, you're going to need to define it first, at least on a basic level. So I'd always start with like, the physical parts of your world. So where are the mountains, where the oceans, the rivers, like, they're the kinds of things you need to know because the, like, rivers and coasts, for example, that's where people live. So you've got to have an idea of the kinds of places that they're going to. Characters are going to be growing up in the kind of climates.
Jennia: Mhm.
Richie: And once you've got an idea of that you real—you start to get an idea of what it's going to be like for them on a day to day basis. For example, if it was a very cold climate, like your life's going to be very different compared to if you live in a desert. So you need to understand them impacts and then you can start to think about characters. I think unless you want to go down the plot route, it's up to you whatever you have in mind. Historically, I was always a plotter. So I would think of these grand scenes and then try and work a story around that. Over time, I've moved towards more character focused stories. I always start with a character and then think about a dramatic that they might want on a basic level. And then you've got to think of ways to stop them from getting what they want.
Jennia: Exactly. Yeah, that key goal mode of conflict. Yep.
Richie: Yeah. I mean, when you find the right story, I think that's if you just can keep it as basic as possible. That's all it is. It's character a wants to get to Point B and the story is everything and trying to stop them from getting it. But, yeah. So fantasy, like, it's much the same as any other genre part once you've got your setting. And one of the best things is that you can bring in other genres. So romantasy, as we both know, very popular at the minute. And that's just a mix of fantasy and romance, drawing from those sort of popular romance tropes. So that sounds quite interesting. And just bringing them into a fantasy setting, it's really refreshing to read. Another great thing to do, like Adrian Tchaikovsky—I interviewed him on my podcast and he came up with the idea for Children of Time, which he won an award for, I think, a few awards. And he just asked the question, "What if?" And just let—like to try and find that unique angle in your worlds. Just letting his imagination run wild. Just say, "What if this, what if that?" If you've got a desert world, what if it's dominated by massive scorpions that people ride? Like in Dune 2 with the worms them kind of things. You're like—you start to get interesting things just by asking questions
Jennia: That's a great prompt. Because it's so open-ended and you can just use it over and over again and it'll never get old or tired. But that's a great point too, about how the setting influences your characters and how tied together those two are. And that goes into a question then about world building, because when you're writing fantasy or you're reading it, you have to be so careful not to add those bits and pieces from our world into it. Even some of the references or the idioms that we might use that are based very much on, you know, maybe our religious background or something that wouldn't apply there. So what advice do you have for doing that? Or how much world building do you need to do before you really get into the thick of writing?
Richie: I always think, build what you need. Like we were saying before, if you've got a character who's a wizard, you're going to need to know about the magic system. So you're going to need to spend a bit of time working out how that works. But if you want magic in your story, and it's not really a central part of it, then you don't need to define it in a grand amount of detail. It's just what you need to tell the story. And I think if you keep that in mind, then you're not going to lose hours and hours and hours of time. So just building loads of stuff that you get really excited about because you spent all this creative energy coming with it and it might be fantastic, but what you end up doing is shoving it all in in quite unnatural ways.
Jennia: Yes.
Richie: Known as the info dump.
Jennia: Yes, the dreaded info dump.
Richie: It's quite bad in fantasy though, because people are encouraged to, well, build and then they spend all this time and effort and have all these notes and they just want to use it. You can't blame them. I was like that as well. I remember when I went back and reread the first chapter of the first novel I started writing and it was like twelve and a half thousand words long (Jennia laughs). Chapter one, you know what I mean? It's just full of world building.
Jennia: Chapter one's a whole novella all on its own.
Richie: Yeah. So it's just what happens. So I just think, just limit yourself to what you need. Think about what your characters are experiencing. So if the characters are going to a town, think about a few things about the town. You don't need to go into loads of detail about it. Just have an idea of what it looks like, what kind of materials the buildings are made of, are the dirt roads or is it paved or cobbled? Just like simple things like that. And then just so that you can create an image in person's mind. And it's not always about an image. Sometimes it's about feeling. So using your senses and thinking about if you're stepping into this village or this new town, what can you smell? Can you hear dogs barking? And so give it a bit of life. And usually if you focus on just a few of those details, that's all you need. You don't need to go define the last hundred years history of this town, all the people who live there, and who's in charge. Yeah, so that's what I would recommend. Just be efficient and economical with your world building and then you'll get more time for writing.
Jennia: Well said. Yeah, there we go. There's a real reason. No, I think it helps too, to look through the eyes of the character and think about, like, even the first time you went somewhere new, or the first time you went to a new town or walked into even a new store or something. You didn't notice everything all at once. And I think that's something that we tend to forget when we're guiding our character into a new area, that we don't have this limited viewpoint that is changing as we continue to walk through it, or everything that we take in and that we aren't taking it in all at once.
Richie: Yeah. It's really interesting how we absorb information. I've been thinking a lot about this lately when it comes to describing characters. So if we see someone walking towards us, what is the first thing that we look at?
Jennia: Mmm.
Richie: Maybe like the body shape, like how tall they are. And then as we get closer, then we begin to zoom in on different details, like what clothes are they wearing. As we get closer still, we might be looking at things like haircuts, what kind of facial expression they have, and your characters will process information in the same way.
Jennia: Oh, yeah. Interesting.
Richie: So I try and think of it like a bit of a process. Yeah, just try and put yourself in the scene and see what it would be like. That's the best thing to do.
Jennia: Completely agree. Well, going into some of the sub genres, because we talked about that a little bit, but what are some that are really popular, right now, at least?
Richie: So we mentioned romantasy before. I'd say that's probably the most popular. Different spectrums of romantasy, isn't there? So there's quite the spicy kind, which is a popular niche. But then you've still got, like, really popular things, like, dragon-rider fantasy seems to be really popular. Just general epic fantasy. High fantasy, I've heard, is meant to be making a bit of a comeback, but I'm yet to see any sign of that. Things like grimdark, like dark fantasy, they're still popular, it seems. Maybe not as popular as like ten years ago when Game of Thrones was out and stuff like that. People have definitely pivoted more towards the sort of happily ever after vibes.
Jennia: Mhm.
Richie: There's a lot of things. Don't you—What have you found that tends to be the popular sub genres?
Jennia: Yeah, definitely romantasy is number one, and I've seen the same thing reflected even in K-lytics reports. And then even just if you are taking, like, an informal poll by looking on Bookstagram and BookTok, it's really shifted away from the darker fantasy or where there was no romance aspect, no matter what the sub-sub genre was after romantasy. And now it all pretty much seems to be romantasy like 90 percent of the time. At least that's what's showing up and that's what people are enthused about and sharing. But again, the sales reports are reflecting that as well.
Richie: So it's crazy, isn't that, how much it's shifted?
Jennia: It's definitely having a moment.
Richie: Yeah. Completely dominating.
Jennia: Mhm.
Richie: It's interesting really, because I mean, I've been speaking with people from like my writing community and they being like saying, "Oh, should we all start writing fantasy now? Like romantasy?" But I don't know. I mean, if it's a sensible idea to pivot that drastically, if it's something that you're interested in.
Jennia: Oh, I wouldn't.
Richie: No, I don't think it's a good idea.
Jennia: I mean, you don't know what the trends are going to be because look how quickly we shifted to romantasy, and you brought up Game of Thrones. So if we ignore even just the books and we look at the show, and then now the spin off show, you know, that had its big, huge moment where everyone was on board and everyone was watching it. Everyone was reading it and talking about it, and now we're switching over to romantasy where everything seems to be romantasy. But how long is that trend going to last? And then what if you've invested all this time and other resources into something that you weren't 100 percent into, but you felt like you had to do it to have success in one way or another and now you're stuck with it and the trend might have changed right as you published.
Richie: Yeah. The fear (both laugh).
Jennia: Yes. So don't do it.
Richie: Yeah, just be patient.
Jennia: Yes. Write what you love, no matter what the trends are saying, because that's why it's a trend. It changes.
Richie: Exactly.
Jennia: Well, going back again to not romantasy, what are some of the popular tropes that you've seen in fantasy that seem to have lasted for years?
Richie: One, the most popular one I see, which I don't really like, is the mentor figure. So there's always a character in a fantasy story that holds this vital information or vital clues or offers training and some kind of skill that helps the main character along in the story. And it's all right, you know what I mean? So classic stories—like Gandalf would be a mentor.
Jennia: Yeah.
Richie: Dumbledore and Harry Potter. I don't know. As someone who was raised by single parents, there's not always mentor figures around, especially like sort of gender role models. I think it's more interesting to see characters fighting to sort of make their own way on their own two feet because a lot of people have to do that in life.
Jennia: Yeah, that's true.
Richie: So that's—that's—it's still a really popular one, though, the mentor figure. And I do like it. So, it's just one I don't try and rely on too much. So another one's dragons. People love dragons that sort of shapeshift—shapeshift and dragons. And vampire is still a thing. I meant to be—vampires meant to be coming back.
Jennia: Yep, it seems like it. Although I don't—
Richie: Yeah.
Jennia: They have an interesting little area, though, because vampires just fit into so many different genres. So it's hard to say that it's just because of the fantasy genre or that shift over to paranormal romance since they're such a staple in horror, for instance, or, well, I guess really mostly horror. But even Sci-Fi has its own versions of vampires too that you'll see pop up where it's not necessarily the blood sucking variety, but some sort of intake of energy that drains the one that they've targeted.
Richie: That's interesting, isn't it? Other ones like the chosen one, I think they still—they're still around. People love a fated hero, but I think I'm starting to see stories popping up now where it's like the unchosen ones, them kind of like role reversals. I think that if you're looking for more humorous fantasy, I think going for them kind of angles—
Jennia: Yeah.
Richie: —definitely work. But what about you? Have you noticed any tropes popping up when you're editing these books?
Jennia: I have seen people not as enthused as they used to be about the chosen one trope, that they don't want it to always be someone who's extra special and fated to save the world or this universe or this kingdom or whatever. But they want it to just be someone who they can more relate to and is more like themselves, as in they just happened to be in this position and they found the strength or the courage or whatever it was they needed in order to overcome all their obstacles and save the day. And I can see that too, because, you know, we like the idea of an everyday hero and it's easier to put ourselves in those shoes and think, "I too could be capable of doing something like this" versus where it's almost your birthright that you were going to save this kingdom or whatever, whether you wanted to or not. That's too bad, because that's what you were chosen to do.
Richie: Yeah, I know. It kind of takes the conflict out of the story as well because—
Jennia: Yeah.
Richie: —you know what's going to happen.
Jennia: Exactly. It's a little bit like having a Mary Sue character in the main character role because, yeah, you know they're going to succeed because, duh, they are the chosen one. I mean, it's not called the failure one or "I'm not going to get it done" one.
Richie: Yeah, yeah (laugh). "Maybe tomorrow" one (Jennia laughs).
Jennia: That could be the new trope.
Richie: But yeah, the tropes are interesting. It's good to understand what they are and become familiar with examples of these stories because that's another way you can find unique angles to sort of go against them or spin them in your own way.
Jennia: Yeah, exactly. Because it's only when you—it's just sort of like people talk about the writing rules. You have to know the writing rules in order to break them. Well, yeah, the same thing with identifying the tropes and having that deep understanding of them.
Richie: Yeah, exactly.
Jennia: So for anyone who is looking for extra information on learning more about fantasy, do you have any resources that you'd like to share?
Richie: Yeah, you can head to the website, which is richiebilling.com. I've got loads of guides on there. Fantasy maps. If you like medieval fantasy, there's like stuff about like weapons and armor people used in medieval times, and like what life was like in castles. So I went into quite a bit of detail over the last few years, but you can also sign up for me newsletter and get a free book. Got loads of stuff on there about writing. And you can find all kinds as well—I've got the podcast, which is The Fantasy Writers' Toolshed. And I've got another book, A Fantasy Writer's Handbook. And there's a few fiction books in there as well, epic fantasy novel, Pariah's Lament. But yeah, there's plenty out there to learn from.
Jennia: All right, well, thank you again.
Richie: Oh, thank you very much for having me. It was lovely chatting with you, as always!
Jennia: Same!
Jennia: And that's all for today. Thank you for listening, and please check out this show notes for more information. And then please join me next week as we continue our fantasy discussion when author Carina Steinbakk will be visiting. And then we're going to be taking a look at defining and writing urban fantasy. Thanks again!