209. Learning to Talk about the Words on the Page

My guest today is Susan Murphy. Susan has worked in broadcasting for over 40 years. A radio news director. A TV news reporter. And, as she says, a “‘weather girl’ back when they called them that.” She’s hosted a talk show and worked in production for both TV and radio. And much more. I asked her to be a guest on the show to talk about voice, in the literal sense of the sound you make with your mouth, and not, say, the voice of your book’s narrator. When you get that book published, you may want to be talking about it, on local television and radio, on podcasts, in interviews. Susan gives practical advice on how to talk in what she calls an “authentic voice.”
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Transcript

Wayne 0:01

Hi, I'm Wayne Jones. Welcome to Writing & Editing the podcast for people who love words and language. Writers, editors, readers, and listeners, and covering all genres and formats. My guest today is Susan Murphy. Susan has worked in broadcasting for over 40 years. Radio news director, TV news reporter. And, as she says, a “weather girl” back when they could call them that. She's hosted a talk show and worked in production for both TV and radio, and much, much more. I asked her to be a guest on the show to talk about voice in the literal sense of the sound that you make with your mouth and not say the voice of your book's narrator. When you get that book published, you may want to be talking about it on local television and radio, on podcasts, in interviews. Susan gives practical advice on how to talk in what she calls an authentic voice. This is “Learning to Talk about the Words on the Page, episode 209 of the podcast. 

Hi, Susan, welcome to the podcast. 

Susan 1:12

I'm so glad to be here. What a delight to work with some authors today. 

Wayne 1:17

Yes. And in a certain way a surprise to authors out there who might be surprised once they see the description of the show or the episode, because you know, what's a voice coach doing here? What does that have to do with writing and editing? Don't you have the wrong show? But when we talked about you coming on here, I was very interested in it because, and as I was just telling you, writers are used to writing, but they're often not used to speaking. And if I may, perhaps might not be very good at it, about talking about their books. But before we started on that, I wanted to ask you in general, if you could, for the listeners, say what is your job? What do you normally do? Well, what do you regularly do, as your activities professionally? 

Susan 2:05

I'm a broadcast voice coach. I work with anchors and reporters and meteorologists and sports reporters as well. And I'm also a voice actor. I do narration, do some work for public television here in the U.S. Occasionally, I get a commercial, but that's not my bread and butter. But it was about two and a half years ago that I decided to become a broadcast voice.

Wayne 3:34

So just to pick up on a couple of things there and we may touch on them as we go along and talk about specifically. But two things you mentioned there that pique me a little. One was you said something about storytelling. So do you mean there that sometimes you're coaching them on? In effect, they're writing, they're putting together something so that you may have all the facts, but marshaling them in the right order so that it makes sense to the listener. Is that right? 

Susan 4:08

Absolutely. You can't talk about voice without talking about the writing. They are inextricably linked. And so, of course, how they put a story together, the words they choose, how long the sentences are. I work with a lot of young women, especially to bring up their natural pitch. But tone, which is what your voice does with the words you wrote. A lot of them are just kind of lost. They're not good storytellers either in the writing or very often in the presentation. 

Wayne 4:45

And the other thing was about the presentation you mentioned about. So would you be coaching them in things such as, for example, that it feels like it's flat or they seem unenthusiastic or, you know, let's say they do have the story in a good order, but the way they're saying it, the pitch and the emphasis and things like that—those, they have no idea what they're doing. Is that part of what you're saying? 

Susan 5:21

Oh, yeah. That about kind of hits that nail on the head. And as opposed to being flat. Yes, I do run into the occasional reporter who's not very good with modulation in voice, but I run into more often is the reporter who has it in their head. Okay, now I'm on television and now I need to sound like a reporter. And this false cadence, this made-up voice in their head. Or they try to emulate somebody they grew up watching and—no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I try to gently move the voice over in their head and bring up their natural, authentic pitch tone for storytelling. Don't be the second-best Lester Holt, be the first you. And I work a lot with them on that. 

Wayne 6:14

You know, that makes a lot of very intuitive sense because, yes, you know what? Whatever flattery may be, what is it? Emulation may be the highest form of flattery, but you'll end up, it will sound fake and false and, oh, you look like an actor and it'll look very insincere. And I can imagine also that if something looks insincere, then you start to mistrust what they're saying. So it all sort of …

Susan 6:44

They go. 

Wayne 6:44

… leeches down, as it were, you know? 

Susan 6:47

Exactly right. And the journalism business has enough problems with trust, mistrust, information, disinformation, please. So whatever I can do to ameliorate even this much, I will have had a successful day. 

Wayne 7:02

Under all that. There's a fact somewhere. There has to be. 

Susan 7:06

Yes. Take out the negatives, please. Yeah.

Wayne 7:10

So, yeah, that's one of the things I noticed when I was looking at your profile and you just mentioned about authentic voice. And that's exactly what I took it to mean. What you said about, you know, I don't want to sound to New Agey, but be yourself. Use the voice that you have. You have certain gifts, you have certain limitations. Just as Lester Holt has certain gifts and certain limitations. Yet he's an excellent, excellent presenter, I guess. Yes. Or news presenter.

And for what we're talking about here—just to shift out of the journalists now and get into and to focus on writers as part of my listenership or audience, if one might say if, if you were using fancy words. And a part of the talking, they might do, for example, especially since there's a lot of indie or self-publishing happening now, is that they may be, for example, part of an interview because someone locally, say, is interviewing them. Oh, you know, it's a small town and this person's published a book and they might be on the local news. And another way they might be talking is through online, through various things they might do on social media themselves. So. Sure. Or someone might have them on a podcast and they'll be talking there as well as a guest.

I've interviewed scores of writers on this on this show, and maybe we can start with publicity, for example, an author publishes a book and it's not a New York Times bestseller, nor is it, nor does the author live in New York. They live in a small city. And yet, you know, that's a big deal for that city so that the person gets interviewed. What would you say to them about how they should answer questions and how they should be? 

Susan 9:19

Oh, how they should be? Okay. The first thing they should be is them. What you need to remember is anybody who's going to listen to the podcast, anybody who's going to read the article or watch the TV segment, likes you and wants you to succeed and wants to hear all about your book. So the first thing you just have to understand is your audience is your friend. So by all means just you know, go into it knowing these people are rooting for me. These people are my people. 

But as I work with broadcasters and if I worked with authors in my world, everything starts with the breath. And over the years, I've taken singing lessons and voice lessons and voice acting lessons. And then just 40 years in the business, being on air as a reporter and as an anchor, there are just things I have learned about ways you can make your voice the best it can possibly be.

And the short version of that is very simply, drop your shoulders, meaning relax the muscles in your shoulders. When you do that, it automatically relaxes all the muscles from your shoulders up and your shoulders are so important to how you can come across on the air as relaxed. Because when we're nervous and when we're tense, where do we carry it? We carry it in our shoulders. So drop your shoulders, relax, and then breathe into your belly. Take air in all the way down into the bottom of the diaphragm, pushing literally your diaphragm belly area out against the waistband of your pants. That's how you know you're breathing properly. All babies, all of us were born, breathing like that. And when we sleep, we breathe like that. But during the day, once we turned three or four and we're walking and talking and following somebody else's direction, we all do what's called conversational or clavicular breathing, which means, sure, the air gets into the diaphragm to push it into your lungs, but it's not efficient. Shorter breaths, more shallow, and it tends to happen when muscles are naturally tense and it pushes the pitch of your voice up. So if you drop your shoulders and breathe into your belly and bring up air and energy, to me, that's the same thing. Bring up air and energy from that belly. 

There is probably where your best pitch, give or take, will be found. So that's the first thing that just the two directions: drop shoulders, breathe into your belly. 

Wayne 12:23

Fascinating. The drop of shoulders is interesting. I never thought about that. The belly thing reminds me instantly, and I hope this is not a dumb question, but often, you know, if people are being seen, for example, the whole idea of letting your belly hit up against your pants—people, you know, there are lots of people who have it sucked in all the time. 

Susan 12:56

Absolutely. 

Wayne 12:57

So both women and men probably so that you know, you look a little more slender, maybe. But that, of course, is right at the area where. Yes. Is that part of it? Is that one of the main things why people don't breathe into their belly? 

Susan 13:14

It could be. Yes. And it's one of the first things before you even can say. But, but, but, but. No, no, no, no, no, no. Many anchors are sitting behind a desk or standing behind a desk. Reporters, when they're out in the field, are framed, shoulders up. So there are many opportunities for you to kind of breathe into that belly, push it out against your waistband. You know, I know anchors especially love to wear slim dresses and their silhouettes look beautiful and trim on television. Gentlemen have an easier time of it. Their suit jacket can cover it. But if you really want to speak in a most authentic, most pleasant tone, you're going to do it. Now, is there a little secret that I would teach you way down the line as to how you can do both? Yes, but I don't share that with most of my clients. Not for the first. Well, sometimes not ever. But if they push me, I will share a little tip that can help them achieve it. But I don't want you to cheat it. You know, if you're sitting in a bookstore, if you are sitting doing a podcast, there's no reason for you not to breathe into that belly. And particularly for young women who, for many reasons, will have a difficult time letting go of a girlish, breathy, sweet voice. They haven't heard really what a natural authentic from the bottom of your diaphragm pitch can sound like. So for many of them, it can be life changing in terms of how they come across and it's  practice.

Obviously when you're on the air, breathing is breathing, but I have a breath practice that I have all my clients participate in, that it activates the parasympathetic nervous system without getting into all of that, so that lowers your heart rate, lowers your blood pressure and engages your brain so that you're very focused, so that as you're breathing into that belly in some sort of rhythmic breath, if you can, if you're being asked questions, you can certainly do that. It really allows you to stay tuned in to that interview.

It also allows you to think a little bit ahead to your answer, ahead to what you're going to say. So many people are afraid when they're on the air of taking a moment to think about the question or make a pause between two sentences. There's something—it's anathema. And I don't understand that. Two reasons for the speaker. It allows you to take another belly full of air and you can actually start, your brain can go to the next sentence. That's great for the speaker, but how about for the listener, for the listener? It allows me to absorb what you just said. You're talking about a book or your life or in the case of a news reporter, you're bringing me a story that maybe I've never heard before. Well, I need to absorb it. I can't relisten, it's not The New York Times where their run-on first sentences are six column inches, and I can look at it four times before I get it right. So speaking with a pause, speaking with a little thought process that shows there's nothing wrong with that, nothing. It relaxes everybody. 

Wayne 17:03

And it can be actually quite effective not only for relaxing everybody, but as you were implying there, to aid in comprehension on the part of the listener. 

Susan 17:15

Exactly. 

Wayne 17:16

What about, let's say that the author, I'm the mythical author, I'm talking about in the town that's on the podcast or on the local television—not a nervous person, is actually quite confident and maybe I'll first go back and ask: do confident people also tend to come with their shoulders up or do confident people just sit down, they've got their shoulders down there, their belly is in and out. They don't worry about that stuff. Or does it have to do it all start with a kind of nervousness? 

Susan 17:52

I think everybody is nervous if you don't do it every day. Oh, heck, I have reporters who do it every day and they're still nervous. You can't sit there and tell me that if you're going on a local TV station and it's the first time you've ever been interviewed on television, Oh, come on. There have to be butterflies. But butterflies are good. Butterflies supply the energy, the breathing, the breath. Work gets those butterflies to fly in formation so that you're not all over the place. If you weren't nervous, you'd be dead. Everybody has to be a little bit nervous. And I think one of the things that this mythical author might remember going in, in terms of it being on television, is to keep answers to maybe three sentences, to keep answers under 45 seconds. I mean, it's one thing if you're being interviewed on NPR and it's part of a 20-minute segment, well, then you by all means, pontificate away. But if it's a local television station where you're just going to be a story, think about your answers and do keep them short. It helps the editors. It allows your interviewer to get in more questions. Yep. So? So just remember, remember not to ramble if you can. 

Wayne 19:20

Yeah. And it's not all. And I obviously totally agree with you, but the rambling. But it's not only that. But I can just imagine, again, this mythical author. I should have given him a name. Darn it. I can also imagine that their first answer to a question, because they want to get it all in, you know, that's why they might answer one question and they'll go for like a minute and 45 seconds on that. And then the poor reporter or interviewer is left with only 45 seconds left and suddenly has to get five questions in. And they won't get all the questions in. And I can just see that. But if you're told what you just said, because if the interviewer has done some work and one has to presume that. 

Susan 20:07

Hopefully, hopefully, unless you're Larry King, you know, Larry King said that he never read a book, never watched the movie, never read the bio, because that's where he liked to interview. The best interviews really do go beyond, you know—I kind of have a rule when I say to my reporters, if I can say it better than you, the interviewee, if I can say it better than you, I am going to say it. But if you come up with that money quote, if you can give me something that I could never have said, oh, then by all means, I'm going to let you say it. So I think and author can think about the things that they would like to stress about their book or about their lives or about why somebody should read this book. And you can steer an interviewer. Politicians do it all the time. And just because they ask your question, you can answer it gently and then go back to where you need to go. So. So think about what you want your viewer or listener to take away. And it really shouldn't be more than three things. Me as the viewer or listener, I can't handle more than three. So think of three things and go there. 

Wayne 21:26

That's a very good point because, you know, for someone who has their book out, you know, they have 100 things they could want to say. But just as the interviewer, one hopes, has done some preparation, the interviewee also should do some preparation, you know, sort of like being interviewed for a job, in a way. 

Susan 21:48

Yes, Yes. 

Wayne 21:49

Just as the interviewers have a list of questions, you should have come obviously to that interview expecting some of those questions or having studied enough so that you can pivot and answer a question you weren't prepared for. So preparation counts for a lot. 

Susan 22:08

Now, if you're not being interviewed live, let's say it's being pre-recorded and the reporter is going to edit it later. Every reporter is trained to, at the very end of the interview, say, Okay, is there anything I didn't ask you about that you want to talk about? And invariably there's where the nugget appears. 

Wayne 22:31

That's fascinating. 

Susan 22:32

Every reporter will do that to you to make sure that some golden quote isn't being missed. 

Wayne 22:41

So that in the end, when they're editing that they can just sort of go. 

Susan 22:44

Straight to it. 

Wayne 22:47

Snip it in somehow so that it feels like part of the show? Yes. There's actually one of the podcasts I listen to where the podcast host routinely does that during the interview. He'll finish an interview and then he'll say, Now the last question I want to ask is, Is there anything I didn't ask you that you would like to? I don't know whether this is all scripted or not, but some of his guests are not other journalists, and they will often come up with something. Yeah, I wanted to emphasize that X and they will have something to say to him. And I've always it feels a little bit hokey in a way, but it's very effective, you know. 

Susan 23:31

And even if it's just a summation of the whole interview, it allows the listener, it closes the interview so well that the viewer or listener takes away something really solid. 

Wayne 23:46

Right? Can you say a little bit about different venues? Let's take the this mythical author out of, say, doing a podcast or something for local TV or something like that. And they're sort of, they're invisible on the radio, for example, or in some other circumstance like at a book reading, for example, that that would be something where you could imagine where they would be, where they've just given a reading. They do that in a certain kind of voice, but then often there's a Q&A that's allowed. Let's take that example. Are there different things other than the breath, the shoulders, the belly that that changes? Does that change very much? 

Susan 24:41

Sure. In in a situation where your audience is in front of you, in a way that's a lot better because you get feedback, you get a smile, you get applause, you get a laugh. Obviously, if you're on a podcast, no, there's no feedback at all. So go with that and be very glad that again, the people who came to that reading adore you probably, so kind of, you know, rest on those laurels, if you will, for just a minute.

One of the things I want to say too, about how you answer a question either in person or on the air: if I can see your lips when we're having a conversation, face to face or in real time, whether we know it or not, we all read lips because it helps to complete the communication cycle in an audio-only podcast or on the radio. I can't see your lips, so I always say to my reporters, Be deliberate, be intentional in your delivery of that story. So I would say to this author, for the people in the back who may not be able to see your lips, for the ministers with whom I work, the people at the back of the church can't see your lips. And it's so important whether you know it or not. And especially as we get older.

So be intentional and deliberate in how you answer the question so that I truly can get it. Another reason to take pauses while you answer those questions so that I can follow and so that I can absorb them. But when you're in a group of people—somebody recently said, you know how back 40 or 50 years ago, if you were, oh, okay, I got to take some public speaking lessons. And one of the fashionable things to say was, imagine your audiences naked. Right? Which is such a stupid idea. Yeah. No, don't do that. But this public speaking coach said, imagine your audience is children, particularly if you're talking about a book that has warmth or heart or sadness or even joy. If you look at your audience as children, how would you talk with them? You would be a little more intentional. You would be warmer, you would be kinder. And I loved that advice. Now, is that going to work for maybe somebody who wrote a book on World War II and you're discussing D-Day? Maybe not, but I think it would work for most audiences if you're scared to look out. And the other trick is to just look over their heads, but think of them as children, and then it just warms you right up to things. 

Wayne 27:55

I want to say to that I totally agree with you. I have never known what the idea behind the imagine them naked was. That you can gain confidence because you're at least  covered by clothing and everyone else is embarrassed because they're naked? I'm glad no one says that anymore. No. And that's a good place to end off, what you're saying about imagining them as children and especially what you said about warmth and that sort of thing. And, you know, it should encourage a writer, a writer who's speaking to not talk down, but to be clear. Right. Because, yes, it can be hard to get the attention of children sometimes. And you need to do that by engaging, you know. 

Susan 28:45

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, perfect. 

Wayne 28:48

Susan, thank you very much. What lesson in in 25 minutes here. Awesome. 

Susan 28:55

Delight to be here. I would love to come back. Let's get some authors in the room. Let's talk about what their concerns are with regard to a book signing or an interview. And let's do some real life examples. I'd be happy to come back, if you would. 

Wayne 29:07

That would be awesome. Yeah, I'll get that arranged. And by the way, I want to say your voice is fantastic. 

Susan 29:15

Oh, thank you. I was born with it. 

Wayne 29:18

Have you done this before?

Susan 29:20

No, this is really only my second time. 

Wayne 29:23

You're a natural. Thank you very much. 

Susan 29:26

Oh, my pleasure, Wayne. 

Wayne 29:28

And that's all for today. Thanks for listening. Check out the show notes for a link to Susan's site and also for a complete transcript of this episode. On the next episode, my great co-host Jennia D’Lima, is back and we're talking Editing Essentials again. This time it's proofreading. That's on Monday. Please join us.