260. Working with a Co Author, with Lillah Lawson and Lauren Emily Whalen

Author Lillah Lawson and Lauren Emily Whalen discuss the keys to successful co-authoring and their first co-author venture with their book Tomorrow and Tomorrow.

We'd also like to congratulate Lillah on her nomination for the 2024 Georgia Author of the Year!
https://www.authoroftheyear.org/2024-nominees

**Note: There were some issues with the recording and compressing of today's audio, so we apologize in advance, but stick around for a riveting interview.
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Get Tomorrow and Tomorrow:
https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrow-Lillah-Lawson/dp/B0CHKY1B29/

Follow Lauren and Lillah on Instagram:
http://instagram.com/laurenemilywrites
https://www.instagram.com/lillahlawson/?hl=en

Visit Lillah and Lauren's Websites and Check Out Their Books:
https://linktr.ee/laurenemilywrites
Lillah Lawson – Author (wordpress.com)

Find a Copy of Lauren's I Heart Jennifer Coolidge and Visit Lillah's Amazon:
https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/lauren-emily-whalen/i-heart-jennifer-coolidge/9780762486373/
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Lillah-Lawson/author/B00ZGWF2DM?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Authors Lillah Lawson and Lauren Emily Whalen know how to successfully and harmoniously co-author a book. We're going to look at questions like how to account for variances in your voice and style, what to do when you disagree, and how to divide the work. This is "Working With a Co Author."

Jennia: Well, it's an absolute pleasure to have you both here.

Lauren: Hi, thank you for having us!

Jennia: If you'd like to introduce yourselves and how you came to work together.

Lillah: Well, I am Lillah. I am the author of five published novels. I write Southern Gothic, historical fiction, and contemporary fantasy. I also write essays. I work by day at a non profit. And actually, Tomorrow and Tomorrow, the book that I co wrote with Lauren, is my first foray into co writing.

Lauren: Hi, I'm Lauren Emily Whalen. Same thing. This was my co writing debut. Tomorrow and Tomorrow is my fourth published novel and my first adult novel. I also write nonfiction and gift books for Abdo Publishing and for Running the Press.

Jennia: Nice! So, before you guys decided to start co authoring a book together, have you ever thought about doing it before or maybe had someone else in mind that you had considered as a co author and then, for whatever reason, decided not to pursue that?

Lillah: I've definitely co written things with people back, like, in middle school and high school. I was the writer nerd that would, like, recruit my friends into writing something with me, and they hated every minute of it. Beyond that, no, I would be very, very picky about who I would do that with.

Jennia: Mmm.

Lauren: I would be picky as well. I had not even thought of it before. I did not start writing until my late twenties. I was the theater nerd in high school, so I'm used to working with others as a performer, but not as a writer. And, you know, Lillah and I, as we'll get into, had a very, very, very good experience. But, yeah, there's maybe one other author friend of mine I would consider collaborating with. It's definitely something to think about before you jump right in.

Jennia: Yeah, you mentioned the chemistry and making sure the other person's chemistry matches yours. So what are some of the traits that you looked at, or did you even ask each other questions ahead of time about work scheduling?

Lillah: We decided to work together in the height of COVID lockdown. We both were home already with more flexible schedules than one would normally have. Now, like, working 40 hours a week in an office, it would be much harder for me to do. We did have a lot of discussions first about, like, "What could it look like?" Lauren, what do you think? Would you agree with that, or?

Lauren: Absolutely! —Sorry for all the street noise, I live in a very busy intersection in Chicago—Yeah, it was definitely a unique time. I was working full time, but I was working full time from home, so I wasn't commuting. And also, some of the things I would—actually, a lot of the things I'd normally be, like, going out and doing were either semi-open or not open at all. So I was home a lot more than I usually am. My day job is as an admin. I'm a senior administrative assistant at a corporate organization in Chicago. So I was very much from the beginning, like, "Okay, how are we going to do this? What's the schedule going to look like? What do our schedules look like, and how does that correspond?" So I made up a calendar for us, and,

Jennia: Oh nice.

Lauren: Yeah! And we're big talkers. We like to just go back and forth, and we record each other voicemails through, like, Facebook DM all day, every day, pretty much. So we just talked about everything before going in. What we also did that I don't think either of us had done before for our individual projects was we did, like, a detailed synopsis of the story just to make sure we would be on the same page with what was going to happen and when. So it was definitely a lot more prep than I've done for my individual stuff. And I tend to prep a lot, but we took extra steps just knowing there were going to be two of us writing it.

Jennia: I can definitely see that prep being a critical piece just because, well, if you think about working with anyone in any capacity at all, it's so easy to assume that someone is going to do something that they assumed you were going to do.

Lauren: Right.

Jennia: And then, now how do you address that, and who do you assign it to, but also, who do you assign it to without either one of you feeling bitter or taken advantage of?

Lillah: Yeah. I think it also helps that Lauren and I, I'm an extremely fast writer, and I kind of gathered that Lauren was the same. The fact that we both kind of write at the same pace was helpful, because if one of us was a slower writer and one is a fast one, we're going to get frustrated with each other.

Lauren: That was definitely key. And because we both are so communicative with one another and just kind of had been from right when we hatched the idea. And before that, we just, we like to talk to each other. That and the fact that we work at about the same pace, like, helped us avoid a lot of miscommunications or things going unsaid. It was basically like, "We're just going to talk about everything and just put it all out there." And I think that really cut down on what could have been a lot of miscommunications because, you know, not only were we writing this during COVID, but we're in two different states and we're in two different time zones. So anything that could be worked out in advance, we made an effort to work it out in advance.

Jennia: I mean, really what it sounds like is just like with any relationship, the communication is going to be the key component—

Lauren: Yeah.

Lillah: Right.

Jennia: —in addition to that, there are these extras because you're writing. So knowing about, like, you know, how the person writes, their writing process, maybe they're more of a planner and you're more of a pantser, and then how do you accommodate those varying processes? But another one too, that I wondered about was the variances in voice and style. Like with your book, you have the different POVs, and so it works out incredibly well because it adds to that sense of characterization for each person so they don't sound the same or they don't use the same terms or phrase and so on. But how did you address that when it came to parts where you were maybe combining your writing?

Lauren: From the beginning we decided, because I'm someone who loves multiple POVs, if you read any of my previous three books, they all have multiple points of view.

Lillah: Yeah, me too.

Lauren: Yeah. Satellite has two. Two Winters has two, and then you hear, like, briefly from other characters. And Take Her Down has multiple points of view because it's written as like an oral history project. The fact that that became a thing in this book was not a surprise to me. But from the very beginning, when we were first deciding, "How are we going to co write this story?", we thought, "Why don't we take the two main characters that we've already kind of brainstormed, Duff and Marian—the Macbeth and Macduff characters, if you're familiar with Macbeth—and why don't we each take one and write from there and, like, alternate points of view?" Because that also seemed like the easiest thing in terms of voice and like, also in terms of co writing and kind of picking up where the other person left off and showing that, well, always, you know, the same event or the same conversation is going to be perceived differently by different people. And I hate to keep saying it just worked itself out organically, but a lot of times it did. Because even from the beginning, it was like, "Well, who wants to write Marian and who wants to write Duff?" And both of us were like, I was like, "I feel more drawn to Duff." Lillah was like, "I feel more drawn to Marian." And it was like, "That's it. Okay!"

Lillah: It worked out so well because naturally, the character that I'm writing, I have an affinity for, and I'm going to be a little biased in her favor, even though she's evil. And, like, our natural affinity towards, like, being slightly biased towards our characters added to the tension between them.

Lauren: It was so fun.

Lillah: Yeah. And I love multi points of view, too. Like, it was just really fun to be able to kind of pick our team.

Lauren: It was (laughs).

Jennia: Did you talk to anyone else who had co authored a book, like, in preparation maybe for what to expect or how to avoid possible issues?

Lillah: I didn't.

Lauren: I did. I have a good author friend who was co writing. She co wrote two, also-inspired-by-Shakespeare graphic novels that are out with Disney Hyperion. They're both really good. They're called Twelfth Grade Night and King Cheer, shout out to Stephanie Kate Strohm. So by the time Lillah and I started our book, she had been doing that for a while, and I asked her, I was like, "Okay, how do you and Molly," —who are also in two different states and two different time zones, and, you know, Lillah has a child—"How do you guys work this out?" And she kind of took me through how they divided the workload. It was different than how Lillah and I divided the workload, but it was very helpful to hear that it could be done. And, like, I'm always a big person who wants kind of an instruction manual and a list of, like, here's how. Even if I don't follow it, I like to have a template. And I think she also said, just communicate a lot. And I was like, "Oh, great, we're already doing that." So, yeah, I think the three of us know, you know, any kind of writing is just a leap of faith, and it's just, you never know how to do it until you do it.

Jennia: Yeah. Were there any tasks or maybe parts of the writing that neither one of you were really enthused about? And then, if so, how did you decide who would be taking up those less than desirable pieces?

Lillah: Well, I hate writing a synopsis, so Lauren took that off my hand. That's really the only part I hate.

Lauren: For me, it wasn't so much that I don't like this part, but when we were doing the final page proofs, which—

Lillah: Oh yeah.

Lauren: —yeah. As anyone listening probably knows, is just the most tedious process, but very necessary because you're going through for spelling and grammar mistakes and typos, and that's basically, like, all you can correct. Another friend of ours, and author Emily Edwards, has said, "No one prepares you for how much you're going to have to read your own book over and over." And it is so true. So when we were in the stage of, like, final page proofs, which is usually a pretty quick turnaround too, I was sick. I had respiratory stuff for, like, that whole month. And so I was like, *in a sick voice* "Lillahh." (all laugh). She was like, "I'll do it." And so that was very nice of her. And then I got to concentrate on getting better.

Jennia: That's nice. I think it helps too, that you already were communicating so well, because I could see someone having the opposite reaction just if they hadn't had that overall honesty up until that point too. You know, thinking back about my own middle school and high school projects where someone always, at the last minute, was like, *fake coughs twice* "I am very sick. I am afraid I cannot write these last five pages." But, yeah. So another vote for why communication matters.

Lauren: No, that is funny, Jennia, because I was never a group project girl either. I was like, "I'll just do it myself." (laughs)

Lillah: Yeah.

Lauren: So, you know, maybe this was—I am a total Type A Capricorn rising. And now that I think about it, I think co writing was good for me in other ways too, because we essentially, like, beta read for each other. We had a built in beta reader, which was awesome. And, you know, there were certain things where it was like, or even when we were brainstorming the plot, like, very early on, it's like, "Oh, I don't know if this should happen." Then there were some things where I was just like, "This is important to Lillah." So—and there was never anything that I was like, "Absolutely not. But okay." But it was good for me to, like, work with a partner I trusted because it just lightened the load too. And, you know, a book is just such an emotional undertaking that it was very nice to be working with a friend on it.

Lillah: Yeah, I think we talked before we started writing too, about, "Are there any hard nos for you? Like, are there any themes that we do not write?" And we lay those out ahead of time so that we didn't surprise each other, but other than that, we kind of did surprise each other. Like, I didn't know how things were going to go until I read her chapter and vice versa, and being also a Type A Virgo. But it was definitely, like, a lot of fun. I'm like, "Oh, I can't wait to read your chapter, and then I get to add to it!"

Lauren: Same.

Jennia: So you brought up some of the positives that come with doing it, because I just from looking online and hearing from other people's experiences, a lot of the focus tends to be on the negative parts of co authoring. But you guys have mostly just talked about positives. So what even is one of the positives besides just writing but even afterwards? Since we know that the writing a book doesn't really just end when you're done writing a book and now you have all these other tasks that you're now responsible for.

Lillah: One, we got to do all kinds of promo together. Lauren actually flew to Athens, and we did an event together and got to spend a weekend with each other. We have this thing we created that ties us together forever.

Jennia: Aww.

Lauren: I had so much fun doing promo with Lillah and, you know, just book promo can be a lot. It can be just kind of a slog sometimes. But it was really fun because our book mainly takes place in Athens, Georgia. So it was fun to spend a weekend in, like, the world of our book because I'd only been to Athens once before, over a decade ago. So that was really fun. We got to hang out and actually, you know, chat in person over cake, like, which was awesome. And, I mean, it was also just fun to have someone to like—you know, when we were getting cover design mock ups, which is a part of the process I really love. I love—

Lillah: Me too.

Lauren: —I love seeing, like, what a cover designer comes up with, because my mind does not work that way at all. And it was just really fun to see the different things our designer, Celine, came up with and just to kind of compare notes. And even with that, we liked the same one, but it was just kind of like, "Oh, could we . . .?" I think we wanted more blood spatter.

Lillah: Yeah! (laughs)

Lauren: We were both on the same page on that! So yeah, it was very nice to have someone else for all the little tasks that go with several rounds of edits and cover design and page proofs, and it's a whole thing, and it was just a pleasure, all of it.

Lillah: Yeah, you raised a good point, because some of that can feel very lonely. Like, if you feel like your publisher or your network is not celebrating you as much as you would have liked, or, you know. But having somebody else there, you have somebody there with you, like a built in support system.

Jennia: And you know they're a safe person to vent to because they're looking at the exact same things. You don't have to worry about them turning around and then telling whoever, "Hey, so and so said this."

Lillah: Right. All of that, I think it just added to it.

Lauren: Definitely. Writing is just—it's a very solitary process, and I love my solitude, but it can really, really get to you. Especially when, like, you know, you do, like, you do build up a community of, like, friends and peers and things like that. But, like, a lot of times, they're not in the same place as you are, professionally and creatively. And Lillah and I—and I hadn't thought of this, but maybe this was also a big help for us as collaborators—we're about the same point career wise. And I think we are really just true peers. And that was very helpful too, to the whole process. We still vent to each other all the time.

Jennia: I'm glad you brought up that you're at the same area or the same level, because there is so much envy, it seems like, in the publishing community, and I think that also ties hand in hand with imposter syndrome. And it's so easy to say, "Why is this person up here?" And "I'm doing everything I think that they're doing, and I'm still down here." So I could see that too, being something that people should think about before they decide to enter into a co author agreement. You know, do they have seven published books? And the other person, this will be their first, or maybe they already have a large social media following and the other one doesn't.

Lauren: Right.

Lillah: Yeah, I think that's important. I feel like if you're not roughly on the same level, it can add to some bad feelings, even if you don't intend for them. Because we're all human.

Jennia: Yeah. Or even just understanding of publishing as a whole, because you also don't want to be the person that has to hold their hand and walk them through each of the steps when you already have so much going on with just getting this book out.

Lillah: True.

Lauren: Absolutely. Because, yeah, it's just the weirdest process, and, like, you really don't understand until you're in it. And I was lucky with my debut, which was also small press, that I did have friends who were published and who were willing to tell me, like, "No, it's normal if your editor doesn't, like, get back to you within five minutes, it doesn't mean you did anything wrong." I mean, there's having friends who will give you advice because they've been there and there's, like, actually working with that friend. So, yeah, I'm not sure I could work with a debut who has, like, stars in their eyes and just thinks it's all going to be smooth sailing because I've worked with small publishers, and it's never a smooth process, and you just kind of have to roll with it sometimes. It very much helped to have a co author who gets it.

Lillah: Yeah, it's been very helpful to, like, have somebody that I can complain to, like, "I'm chasing up yet another payment," you know?

Lauren: I know that life! (laughs)

Jennia: Yeah. But even just to having that person to share, and all those small decisions. And there have been previous episodes of the podcast where we've talked about paralysis or becoming so cognitively drained from all the decision-making that you've already made, maybe not just with writing, but your everyday life. And then let's say it's eight or 9PM, you've been working for so many hours, you've done all these errands, and now you're being asked to make a quick decision that's related to your publishing schedule or your cover or where you're going to send galleys, and then having someone else who can help take some of that load off so it's not just you. I mean, that alone seems like massive pro, you know, the pros and cons list for co authoring. Yeah. I mean, you guys just seem to have a very natural gel, you know, as far as coming together and not just your work schedule and how you prefer to work, but even just the vision that you had for the book. Because even during editing, there was never anything where one person was just like, "Well, I'd really prefer to keep this." And the other person wasn't. And I think that's incredibly rare. But it also goes to show that it can work, and it can work extremely well.

Lillah: Yeah, I don't know how we did that so well. We would just be honest and say, "Would you mind if I change this just a little?" Or, you know, we play around with it, and if it didn't work, then the other person would just come back and say, "You know, don't love this," but we were just honest with each other, but in a—in a kind way.

Lauren: Yeah. It was very much also like, you know, we're very close friends, and sometimes it's putting on your co author hat versus putting on your friend hat, like having kindness and respect, but also being professional. Because I also have a lot of thoughts over how to give a good critique, because I've received really helpful critiques, and I have received really unhelpful and hurtful, like, quote unquote "critiques." And there just wasn't an issue here. I mean, if there was, you know—yeah, Lillah might suggest, "Could I play around with a sentence of yours?" And I can't think of any time I said, "Absolutely not. My words are sacred." It's like, "No, bring the revising (all laugh). It's yes, absolutely. Thank you for asking." And then there would be times where I'm like, "Um, Lillah, I think you've said this, like, five times in as many sentences (Lillah laughs). Could we maybe cut a few?" Like, here's where—you know, God bless "track changes." Because it's like, "Here's where I've maybe deleted where we don't need them. But, you know, you can—you know, you can reject that if you think all five are necessary." And—

Lillah: Just call me out, why don't you? (all laugh). I'm very repetitive. It's true.

Jennia: I'll just say that editing went extremely well, and they, as far as edits go, it was a very clean copy. So there's another benefit that you're basically self-editing by editing the other person's work.

Lillah: Yep, that's right.

Lauren: It was so great. So we wrote the first draft very quickly. We wrote it as part of NaNoWriMo, because that's another thing we have in common, we both love NaNo. I think from the beginning, it was like, "Let's just do the first draft during NaNo." So we had a full first draft in 30 days. And then we took considerably longer—we took several months to do two, like, full revisions. And I didn't even realize we were being that thorough until Jennia, when you sent us the edits, and you're like, "This is really just clean." And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, I guess we did a good job.

Lillah: Yeah!

Jennia: You did, yes (laughs). Well, if you had any advice, like, a number one trait or quality, perhaps, if someone was looking for a co author, or maybe they're debating whether or not they should ask a friend to co author with them, what would that be? What do you think they should look for? Or what do you think they should ask?

Lauren: Lillah said something about vision, and I think your vision of the book, everything's going to come from there, and you have to make sure it's in sync. From the beginning, it was just like, "Hey, what if we did Macbeth, but with an all female band, like the Runaways, but a little bit older? And there are the three witches are hot guys, and Lady Macbeth is the hot-guy-manager, who's also kind of a dick, but you love him anyway. And I think that was basically it for us. We were like, "Yeah, that's it." We went from there because that was what we both saw, what we both were excited about. We knew what we wanted from the beginning. And there were many more conversations and Google Docs and calendars and voice messages, but it really just started with, we had a shared vision for this book, and we wanted to do it together.

Jennia: Right.

Lillah: Yeah, I would agree. Vision, I think that's the most important thing. But also having, like, a strong foundation. Like we were talking about, we're on the same level professionally, but we're also a lot alike. Like, we were both reading "Sweet Valley" when we were kids. You know, we have enough in common that we understand each other. I think that's really important too. The other thing I would say is you have to be willing to put in the work. Like, I've read all of Lauren's books. I already knew, like, her voice, I already knew the topics that she liked to write about. Having a shared vision and an idea is great, but you also have to, like, put in the work.

Lauren: Yeah. It's one of those where, yeah, it sounds like we did a lot of prep, because we did a lot of prep, but all of it paid off. It is a lot, a lot, a lot of work. But by the time we were ready to finally start writing, we knew exactly, like, what was going to happen.

Jennia: And I'm glad that you both have touched on, knowing that person on a more personal level as well, not just a work level, because I would guess that's a big reason why you dodged any issues, just because you do know how that other person works. And not just that, but you know, how to respond to them in a way that they're going to be willing to listen and you know how to give critiques in a way that is not going to hurt them, and they're still going to be open to hearing everything that you have to say or, you know, there might be a certain task or something that they're not as willing to do or they'd rather avoid. And I just think that that's a big part of it, but that's also something that we don't see come up a lot. It all tends to be just how we divided the work or how we decided who would write what. But that doesn't really get at how do you even avoid having problems, let alone how do you deal with them now that they exist?

Lillah: Yeah, you need to be able to trust the other person.

Lauren: Absolutely. And, like, we knew we could and would hold each other accountable because there are a lot of deadlines involved with publishing a book, and we both knew, you know, if we said we were going to do this by this time, we'd do it. If there were extenuating circumstances, we'd talk about it. And I think just our very Type A traits just helped us keep ourselves on track before we had a publisher and an editor to keep us on track.

Lillah: Oh, yeah. Like, my worst nightmare is telling somebody I'm going to do something and then not doing it. Like, can you imagine?

Lauren: Same. I—you know, even when I was very sick and Lillah offered to do the page proofs, I felt so bad, even though I knew, like, I shouldn't. It was just—but it really is! I'm like, "I'm not a flake. I swear!" (all laugh)

Lillah: It was fine. (Lillah and Jennia laugh)

Jennia: Well, thank you again for both being here and for explaining not just how you became co authors, but why it worked for you. I don't want to have the last line be, "Find your writing soulmate who matches you in every way," which is what seemed to happen for you two (Lillah and Lauren laugh). But it probably does help if you find someone who has those same writing qualities that you. And even just having the same writing pace, so you don't have one person writing six chapters for every one the other person is writing. But before we go, do either of you have any upcoming projects or events you'd like to share?

Lillah: I have a re-release of my Dead Rock Star trilogy. The first two novels in that series are going to be re-released in May of this year, with the final coming out in August through Midnight Tide. So be on the lookout for that. And that's all I have to announce presently, but stay tuned.

Jennia: That we will. (both giggle)

Lauren: So my next book with Running Press will be out April 2nd. It's called I Heart Jennifer Coolidge: A Celebration of Your Favorite Pop Culture Icon. It was an absolute blast to write, and it will be out everywhere April 2nd. Like Lillah that's all I can announce presently, but if you'd like to follow me on Instagram, I'm at laurenemilywrites, one word.

Jennia: All right, thank you again!

Jennia: And that's all for today. Thank you for listening, and please check out the show notes for more information. And we'll have all of their links down there so you can follow them and see everything else they have coming up in the future. And then please join me next week when author, podcaster, and fantasy expert Richie Billing will be here, and he's going to be telling us all about the fantasy genre. Thanks again!