268. Writing With Inclusion with Tonya Todd

Author, actress, and activist Tonya Todd talks about how to write with inclusivity, include it in your work, and how it can affect the readers' experience.
▬
Visit Tonya's website:
https://www.mstonyatodd.com/the_author/

Find Tonya on her socials:
https://www.instagram.com/mstonyatodd/
https://x.com/mstonyatodd?lang=en
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonya-todd-b05b1918a

Writing sensitivity website:
https://www.writingdiversely.com/

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Have you ever wondered how to write inclusively? Or perhaps how to write more inclusively than you already are? Do you want to know why it matters to your audience and how it can even affect the reader's experience with your work? Author, actress, and activist Tonya Todd will be answering those questions and others on today's episode, "Writing With Inclusion."

Jennia: Well, thank you so much for being here! If you'd like to get us started by telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Tonya: First, I want to say thank you for having me. I appreciate having an opportunity to talk about this, and it's been very nice to meet you!

Jennia: Yeah same!

Tonya: So I started off as just an author. You know, I was just trying to write a story, and my story happened to have a black woman as the protagonist. And what I kept coming across when I was querying my work—the industry is very heavily geared toward white women in the publishing industry, and I'm submitting my work blindly. There's no picture involved. They don't know who I am. And I kept getting people telling me that the character I was writing was not an authentic black person.

Jennia: Oh.

Tonya: So I was taken aback by that, and it was multiple people telling me, "This is not how black people talk. This is not how black people act." And it's like, oh, that's how I act and behave. Does that mean that I—(Tonya and Jennia laugh)

Jennia: (both laughing) Oh no. You know, you hear about cringe moments.

Tonya: Right! And it's just in their experience, that has not been what they have seen and heard. But there's also an element of: who are you to determine that, you know?

Jennia: Right, yes.

Tonya: And maybe you want to find out to whom you are speaking before (laughs), you know, before you start putting stipulations on a behavior for an entire group of people.

Jennia: Yeah, exactly. Even just from an editing standpoint, when I encounter something like that, I'll usually talk to the author directly, such as, I'm just checking to see if, you know, you have such and such heritage, if this is part of your family's own personal culture and traditions that you're sharing, for obvious reasons (laughs).

Tonya: And this was a little before the whole Own Voices movement started. So it's not even like I could have gone at it from that perspective. I was very new, just trying to put my story out there, but no one was saying that the story wasn't good. They were saying, "This is not a black person." I know lots of black people who speak like this. You know, it's not—there's this whole danger of the single story, which has been a TED talk. You can't judge an entire group of people based on one member of that group.

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: And it's dangerous to perpetuate stereotypes because what you're doing is you're actually excluding people who are within that demographic by saying, "You don't even belong to your own group." So there was that element where I just want to write my story and put it out there. I don't want this to be about race. And then I would get other people saying things like, "Okay, so you are black and you are telling the story, and we'll accept that some black people talk like this, but in this story, we're not hearing how challenging her life is as a black woman." Well, that's not the story that I'm telling. Like, that's not the purpose of the story. I might have mention of, something that happens, but the plot does not have anything to do with her being black. Like, she just happens to be a black woman.

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: And guess what? It doesn't matter what your race or sexual orientation or country of origin. Everyone has to deal with things like financial elements and getting a job, having a career, having family, finding love. These things are universal elements that have nothing to do with what boxes you check.

Jennia: Exactly! There are so many of these shared human experiences. And I love that you're saying this, because when we get into this mindset of "This type of people writes this type of book," it's like we're excluding them from that and saying, "Well, you're not able to have the same experience as I am." And so I think it further perpetuates any stereotypes or feelings of divisiveness.

Tonya: It really does!

Jennia: Yeah, because we're really putting a group, or whatever, in a box and then seeing it as other every time we do that.

Tonya: And then there are situations where someone will say, "I like the story, but we already have a black book." Oh, there can only be one, apparently, you know? (laughs) because—

Jennia: (laughs) You didn't know the quota had been met.

Tonya: Right, "The quota has been met," and they're all the same story. And I'm actually biracial, so I'm fairly certain that they're not all the same. You know, like (laughs), I've had to deal with racism from multiple perspectives. Like, it's just, wow, okay, well, I guess you've already checked that box, and I will come back when another opening for that box... (both laugh). That's not true. I'm not going to come back for that. But what that meant was that was not the right agent for me, apparently. But it did open my eyes to the playing field already wasn't equal. I couldn't just pitch my book without worrying about all of the boxes that they felt that they need to check. I didn't think I needed to identify myself. Why would someone who wrote a very challenging story about what it means to be queer and having to hide that within your family want to announce that?

Jennia: Yes! And then we've seen that happen, though, too, where authors have felt the need to defend themselves because people think they're calling them out on claiming a group or society that they don't really belong to, or applying a voice to it that they feel is inaccurate or truthful. And then I've seen that happen before, where the authors are coming out hesitantly, and they usually do begin the statement with something like, "I don't really feel comfortable sharing this. I never thought I would have to share this, but..."

Tonya: Right, "But you have forced my hand because you feel you're the authority on whether I'm allowed to speak my truth," basically.

Jennia: Right! And how limiting too, to think that humanity is summed up so easily and that we all have this, like, trajectory of experiences we are allowed to have or not have and feelings that we are allowed to have and not have.

Tonya: And it's not just about race. I mean, what about people who feel like every woman's story has to be about her desire to have a child? Like, some people choose not to have children!

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: I don't like to say, "And that's fine," because that implies that it might not be fine. Like, I don't like the implication that that has.

Jennia: Mhm, that's a good response, yeah.

Tonya: There's no reason why they can't just tell the story they want to tell or focus on the elements of their character that they want to share. Now, if you've introduced something into the story and you don't develop that, that I completely understand. But to say that, "No, because you're writing about this, we need to know this element of this character." Like, because you're writing someone who is a woman, we must know whether she has children, whether she wants to have children, and what kind of husband or she wants to have. Like, what if she doesn't want a husband? What if she wants a wife? You know, like, just the assumptions that are made based on these boxes.

Jennia: Yeah. 

Tonya: So my early experience clued me into the need for these conversations. And then eventually I ended up being the education chair for some writers' group. So I had an opportunity to bring in speakers on a monthly basis to talk about craft, talk about plotting, talk about the path to publication, outlining, talk about good dialogue—all of these elements that you would want a teacher to bring into the organization.

Jennia: Mhm, yeah.

Tonya: And I tried to make sure that I was covering things from Sci-Fi to romance to literary fiction to nonfiction, just trying to meet the needs of all of the members in the group. But what I continually was asked, both before I was the education chair and then especially afterward, was, "How do we write about characters who are different from us? Like, we don't want to have these stereotypes—"

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: "So help us. Help us figure out how to do this." Now, before I was the education chair, it was basically, "You're the one person in this group who's not white," you know? And I really wasn't the only non-white person, but I had some visibility. So they would come to me and ask me to represent an entire group. And I'm not upset with them for this. It was all they saw that they could do. At least they were willing to ask. I did feel pressure to help them through this, but they were not pressuring me.

Jennia: So what sorts of questions did you hear the most often that you felt comfortable answering?

Tonya: It was situations where they want to tell a story about someone outside of their own identity, maybe because they had met someone and that person inspired them, and they want to tell a story about someone like that. They see a need for this. They feel very passionate about something, but they're worried that there will be backlash because it's not their story to tell.

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: Which is fair. Like, it's fair to be mindful of that. But if you are mindful of it, you are far more likely to be careful about what you're telling and to do your research and to treat the material with empathy and understanding than to just say, "I can write whatever I want to write without censorship." But if that is your attitude, you're probably not doing your story justice.

Jennia: Right. And I always say, not just in this area, but in others as well, because anyone who has that narrowminded mentality of, "I know what's best," they've already blocked themselves off from any helpful feedback, not just there, but...

Tonya: Right. And you see that in critique groups. You see that in writing groups where someone says that they are there for feedback, but as soon as you give it to them, they just defend their work.

Jennia: Right. They're there for validation of what they already think. Not really so much feedback or a helpful critique.

Tonya: Right. And so I continued to get these questions, and because I really saw there was a need, and I wanted to help the group, and I want to help inspire people to put more fiction out in the world that isn't homogenous. We don't live in a homogenous society, so our stories shouldn't either. I absolutely support Own Voices, but I feel that's more of a publishing issue of that whole, "We already have that story."

Jennia: I agree. Yeah.

Tonya: But I don't think that we should censor people who want to write about characters outside of their community, because then we're telling every person, everyone in your story needs to be exactly like you, which is untruthful in fiction and boring.

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: Unless you're writing about a cult of people who are (Jennia laughs, indecipherable words)... it's a Stepford situation, and that's the whole point of the story. "Everybody's the same. It's so creepy!"

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: But there should be people with disabilities. There should [be] people who are old and young, and big and small, and tall and short, and beautiful and ugly. There should be different races. There should be different abilities. You shouldn't have stories that don't reflect the real world unless that is part of the plot, that they don't reflect the real world.

Jennia: Right. And I would think, as we do so, we're going to be introducing new tropes as well. Especially as I think about books that have stood out to me because they were different. One of my favorites recently was The Phlebotomist, and it's an older black woman who is the main character hero in a Sci-Fi novel. And I thought, "How often is it first even a woman?" I mean, even now, you still tend to weigh more heavily on male representation as the hero for that genre. But she's a grandmother, and she still manages to save the day!

Tonya: So a woman? An older woman?

Jennia: Yes.

Tonya: And you said a woman of color as well?

Jennia: Yes. Yep!

Tonya: Yeah, all of that!

Jennia: I mean, that wasn't why the book stood out to me, because the book was spectacular for a variety of other reasons. But it's also sad, you know, in a way, that it stood out to me because that shows how limited we still are in the representation that we see in published work.

Tonya: Right. Well, Octavia Butler did do stories like that where black women were in science fiction books, but she stands out as being a rare case. And I don't think it's because of lack of interest. I think it's lack of opportunity.

Jennia: Yeah, that's a part of it too. So even though we're writing or trying to write more inclusively, or people are writing more inclusively, then how do you deal with these other barriers? You know, how do you make sure that your book is still getting the attention it deserves? Or your work is getting seen by these people who have the potential to launch it the way it deserves to be launched?

Tonya: With allies. That's the kind of thing that will not work without allies. Allies who are already in powers of position, and then bringing a more inclusive group of people into powers—or into positions of power, to make the decisions and to be able to say, "Hey, this doesn't ring true. Hey, I actually have that lived experience. Maybe we should think about how this would make someone feel within that community," Basically.

Jennia: Yeah.

Tonya: And I am all for people writing about characters outside of their diversity, because you learn that way, provided you do the research, the proper research into it. You learn about other people. It helps you to become a stronger writer, helps you to be a better person.

Jennia: Yeah, I completely agree with everything you've just said. So we've talked a lot about characterization or writing characters in terms of inclusivity, but what also about language and language use?

Tonya: So that can be a very sticky situation, because you don't want to write characters that are just stereotypically from within a community. Don't want to make it sound like you're making fun of someone in that community or painting them as uneducated because they don't speak in the typical middle class white vernacular.

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: But to me, if you are reading books from people within those communities about people within those communities, and spending time with people within those communities, the vocabulary and the dialogue that you come up with will be natural. You won't be thinking, "This is how someone like this talks." It'll just be a sentence that comes to you because the conversation will play itself out with your characters.

Jennia: I do hear a lot of authors say that; that they do lose control over the characters, and they're just like, "Yeah, I want to do this now. I know you plotted this and this, but it's not really working for me."

Tonya: Right? Like *as character* "Yeah, I wouldn't do that." *as author* "But I need you to do that because of X." *as character* "Well, too bad that's not me."

Jennia: Right? Thanks for the plot hole!

Tonya: Right. In fact, one of my first characters, you know, I was new, and I based this character off of my gay best friend, okay? Who you may not even recognize that he was gay because he's so subtle, unless he's feeling very feisty, you know, but he's just playing it up. That's not how he typically behaves. The real him could just pass for a straight white guy. So I based him on him. And as I'm writing the character, the character just keeps emerging as more and more flamboyant and I'm like, "I do not want this to be a stereotype. I really need you to reel," you know, I'm telling the character, "You need to reel this back in." But I had my friend—He was one of my initial readers—

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: —before I even joined writing groups. Like, I'm just trying to figure out, what am I doing? And he's like, "Oh, he's so much more fabulous than I am." (both laugh). "Just let him be who he's going to be. And you have to promise me that you won't ever meet him in real life because he'll steal you from me."

Jennia: Aw, that's high praise indeed! (both laugh)

Tonya: Like, I tried so hard—I tried to change that character's name. Tried to change it, and he's like, "No, that's fine." And I go, *meekly* "Okay." (both laugh). But he allowed me to introduce the element of code switching within the story.

Jennia: Oooh.

Tonya: So when he's with his friend in the story, he's going to be himself and talk the way he talks. But when he's at work, he has a whole different persona, so it allows that element. It would not have happened if I had not just let the character be himself. It would have just been me forcing him into the box that I was trying to create, which is my friend, you know? (Jennia laughs). So he has my friend's heart—he doesn't look like him, (both laugh) he does not speak like him, but he loves like him. And that's really the important [part]—

Jennia: Aww, what a sweet way to honor your friend, though too. For him to know that he's been immortalized in a way in this book, even if it's not easily identifiable as him.

Tonya: He knows. And he's the only one!

Jennia: You bring up an important point too, about using early readers, and I'd like to elaborate on that and also get your thoughts on sensitivity readers and not just early readers?

Tonya: So I am a sensitivity reader, but it's important to note that not all sensitivity readers can read for all sensitivities.

Jennia: Right.

Tonya: So I would not be the person to read for a disabled character. I would not be the person to read for a member of the Asian community. These are not my lived experiences. And though I might read something and recognize that, "Hey, this might be offensive to someone," it's not my call. I can't speak for them, nor do I think I can speak for all people within my own communities.

Jennia: Right!

Tonya: Because I am only one of that group, but I do have slightly more authority to at least voice, "Hey, within my community, this is often considered very offensive or slightly offensive or you're in a gray area here. Watch where you're going at this. Make this a teachable moment, maybe." (both laugh).

Jennia: Yeah. It's just that added familiarity. So one thing that, or not one thing, but I do edit quite a few books where the deaf community is represented. And even though I'm not a sensitivity reader, my brother is hard of hearing and has severe hearing loss. And so just from being around him all my life—and then my oldest child deciding to join the American Sign Language club and becoming its president.

Tonya: Yes!

Jennia: There is at least a little bit of understanding there that I definitely wouldn't have otherwise.

Tonya: You are an ally to the community! You are actually part of the community because of your allyship. You're not someone just looking in. It's part of your family.

Jennia: Yeah, and so one thing I've noticed, and I'm sure you've noticed this too, there are things that I think a lot of people doesn't even begin to come to their mind that this could be offensive, or this isn't the word that's used anymore, or that this terminology might sound offensive or belittling.

Tonya: Yes.

Jennia: And I think that's one reason why it is so important to have a sensitivity reader, or at least an early reader, who's part of that community and is willing to honestly share their feedback and feelings.

Tonya: I definitely agree with that. But I also think it's important to mention that every one of us has been ingrained with these certain prejudices. There's no way to approach something unbiased. We're all biased. We're biased by our own experiences. The media that we've been fed, the books that we read, that shapes how we think of things, consciously and unconsciously. So you have to look at it from the perspective of even if someone is using this language—

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: —they've been brainwashed with it since they were born, just like we have. And maybe you have spent a little more time trying to unlearn that, give them the grace of understanding that their journey is different from yours.

Jennia: Yeah.

Tonya: And the fact that they have a sensitivity reader means that they are trying. They're trying, you know? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off!

Jennia: Oh, no, no. You were in the right to finish, especially because what you said was definitely—people need to hear it.

Tonya: The industry is definitely improving, but we have so far to go.

Jennia: Oh yeah.

Tonya: We can't do it alone. It can't just be people within these communities doing the work. And I think that organizations like Women's Fiction Writing Association, they extended an invitation to me to give them a proposal about how to make their group as a whole more inclusive. Not just—not just writing, but make the organization more inclusive and welcoming. And so right now, I'm in the middle of a year long journey with them where we are holding workshops—essentially every other month, there'll be a workshop, a Q & A session, and an assessment period. We're doing each of those twice this year to help the members of the organization make other members feel more welcome, and the members within to do a better job just in the community, making people feel welcome. And the way to do that is to show them how they connect. We can connect on a human level. There are things that we share. There are elements that we share that don't have anything to do with who we love or what color our skin is.

Jennia: Yeah, exactly. And I love that you're going to a community and talking to them. And so it's not just that person-by-person basis. And I feel like that's going to have, you know, like, much further outreach eventually, as those people then go to their own communities and writing groups and have their own publishing deals someday. And then they take that knowledge with them and bring it wherever they go.

Tonya: That is absolutely the goal, to create ripples that go beyond what I can reach.

Jennia: Yes. I mean, I'm just—It's one of those things too, like, we still talk about it all the time, and so we see change in the publishing community, but it just feels like it's also still so slow and that it's like little bits and pieces. We start to see it coming up and that it is still so rare that even in book reviews or the summaries it's noted in them. And it's just exciting, though, to think that someday we're going to reach the point where we don't even have to differentiate from that and be like—

Tonya: Right.

Jennia: "Oh, hey, look what's one of the five books that is out of the millions that were published?" (both laugh). So we talked about this a little bit before too, but how do you think it helps the readers to have books that are more inclusive available to them?

Tonya: It makes them feel seen. It makes them feel valued. If you finally get to see yourself as a hero in a story, that part of your brain that's always telling you, "You're there to support others, you're there to be an assistant in someone else's story," sometimes you start to see, "No, I can be the hero of my own story."

Jennia: Yeah, that's very true.

Tonya: And it's really important for people to see that because it gives them agency within their own lives. And people don't understand just how powerful fiction can be. Yes, these are stories that maybe didn't actually happen, but they're based on situations that did happen.

Jennia: Exactly. And it exposes them to that possibility too. I was thinking about the societal and cultural change that could occur just because writing is changing and we're evolving in this direction. But I was thinking too, as you were talking about our early biases, and even as children in the books that we're exposed to, and the books we read, and the characters we see there, and how they're depicted.

Tonya: See, when I started writing, it was a moment. It was like a huge decision when I decided my main characters will be black women. It was a huge decision for me. It wasn't what automatically came to mind.

Jennia: Oh, wow.

Tonya: Well, part of it was I was a very new writer and I was worried people are going to think I'm talking about me. If the character is black, they're going to think that this is my life and this happened to me and that I'm writing about myself. Well, who cares what they think? (Jennia laughs).

Jennia: Yeah, exactly!

Tonya: Guess what? It is you. All of your characters are you. If I had written about a purple (both laugh) person with like eight arms, and that's my main character, that person is me. Like your characters are you. Your perspectives inform how that person is going to be. It doesn't matter what they look like on the outside. You are your characters. I took time to learn that lesson, so... (both laugh).

Jennia: That is so true. It's like, I was reading an article a few months ago and it was talking about, "Do I need to put some of my current worldviews into my story?" And someone was arguing the current social, political climate, your worldviews, they're already in there. You might not realize that they're in there, but they are. And it's one of those things where 100 years later or 200 years later, we're going to be able to go through this and say, "Oh, he's saying this," or "He's using this phrasing because..."

Tonya: Mhm, exactly. "Because." (laughs).

Jennia: Well, before we end, do you have any suggested resources or parting tips for authors who want to learn more?

Tonya: I have many, and I will try to narrow it down. (Jennia laughs). Definitely read Vanessa Riley books because right now she has been gifted opportunities to write about real black women in history whose stories haven't been told, who actually were the heroes of their stories. They're fictionalizations of real stories. Because, you know, she's had to dig into the real histories and learn from newspapers and whatever elements she can find.

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: Birth and death records have been something that have really assisted her with this. Like, "Oh, wow, she had twelve kids," you know? (both laugh). And they don't all have the same race marked, you know? Definitely support her work. She has a rare opportunity to tell these stories, and I want to support that element in the world.

Tonya: Read Stamped: The Remix, which talks about being a racist, or an anti-racist, or an assimilationist. If you don't understand those phrases, read the book (Jennia laughs).

Tonya: And then attend classes. Attend classes that talk about—

Jennia: Oh, so good.

Tonya: Classes, plural. I teach this, and I attend classes on it because there's so much to learn and I can only speak from my own perspectives.

Jennia: Mhm.

Tonya: Well, I gain perspectives by attending these classes and being around people who are different from me. That adds to my arsenal of perspectives. Just like, if you're going to write about being a plumber, I know in theory what a plumber does, but I don't know what their day to day is, what their tools do, how this stuff works. If I were going to write about a plumber, I would need to do research about a plumber. And, I don't know, maybe talk with a few? But just immerse yourself in your character's world. Also, if you're writing about someone outside of your perspective, put yourself in that character's point of view and ask yourself, "Would it hurt me if someone were writing about me like this?"

Jennia: Ahh, that's a great question to ask, yes. And it also goes back so well to what you said.

Tonya: Writing Diversely is a site where you can get sensitivity readers and break down specifically what they can essentially cover or what their perspective is so that you know whether you are approaching the right person!

Jennia: Well, thank you again! This was a really great conversation and I'm glad that we were able to have it.

Tonya: I appreciate you bringing me here.

Jennia: Thank you for listening! And make sure to check out the show notes for more information. And then please join me next week as Jean Burgess visits to talk about something we haven't covered before: how to write about the music scene. And if you enjoyed today's episode, I'd greatly appreciate it if you took the time to leave a rating or review wherever you download or listen. Thanks again!