283. Is ​Formal ​Writing ​Training ​Necessary ​for ​Writing ​Success? With Paul Brooks

Author and Page Turnerz host Paul Brooks talks about whether formal training for writers is necessary and how you can kickstart your writing on your own time.

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Visit Paul's website:
https://paulbrookswriter.com/

Listen to his podcast:
https://pageturnerz.com/

Follow him on his socials:
https://www.instagram.com/paulbrookswriter
https://x.com/PABrooksWriter

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Paul Brooks, author and host of the Page Turnerz podcast, is here to help us explore a topic that I've seen come up again and again in writing circles. And that is, can you find success as a writer without any formal, right training or education? And is it even necessary to turn you into a quote unquote good writer? Or is this something that you can do on your own through self practice and self study? This is "Is Formal Writing Training Necessary for Writing Success?"

Jennia: Well, lovely to chat with you again, Paul!

Paul Brooks: And you! Thank you for inviting me on. I've been looking forward to speaking to you again!

Jennia: Yes, so have I. I'd love to have you start out by telling us something about your own training or what path you took to authorship yourself.

Paul Brooks: Oh cool. That's an interesting question. I suppose YouTube and books. I've got some behind me, actually, here (Jennia laughs). I have, no formal qualification, no formal writing qualifications whatsoever. But I've always been interested in storytelling and writing. And I suppose that's where—when I had this story burning away in the back of my mind, I thought, "I need to tell it." But I thought, "Well, I'm not quite sure how to tell it." So I just sort of started digging around to see who could tell me how to do it. And that's kind of—and I wrote lists and had them stuck up on the walls of what should be included in a scene and all of those sorts of things, really. I don't have them now, but when I first started, I used to have them just to refer to them. So that there was that, what looked like a practiced, educated scene on the page, when in reality it was just a list that I followed. And it seems to work, or certainly for me anyway.

Jennia: Do you think that there are some people that just have this innate sense of what to put into a story? And they just know how to follow those steps on their own?

Paul Brooks: Yeah, I think there are some people out there like that. And I kind of hope to sort of include myself in that category. I suppose it's a bit like some people are just naturally funny, they're just naturally comedians, and they just make you laugh. And I think writers, there are some writers that are the same. They just can write—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —and they can tell a story.

Jennia: That's one thing that Stephen King has talked about with his writing process, that he doesn't plot or do any of these additional steps that, especially with something with formal writing training that we are learning how to do that he just does them. So I think that really just proves your point (Paul laughs).

Paul Brooks: Yeah. (jokingly) I've not heard of Stephen King before, obviously.

Jennia: Right, yeah. He's just a nobody author (Jennia laughs).

Paul Brooks: Yeah. I'm sure he's somebody who perhaps knows what he's doing, I don't know. But yeah, yeah absolutely. No, I think that's right. You know, I mean, it's an art form really, at the end of the day—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —when you're writing. And it's a case of, for me particularly anyway, rules are meant to be broken, or at least stretched a little bit, shall we say. But I think as long as the story has a coherence and there is a progression in the story and it's got a beginning, middle, and end, if you like. If you want to sort of boil it down to its basics. Then you can pretty much get away with an awful lot these days, I think.

Jennia: Mhm. I agree with that too, that we're seeing more exploration with our writing and what we consider a story versus not a story. And even how we integrate these different parts where there might have been some rigidity before then in how we define them or expected to see them come together.

Paul Brooks: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes that if you don't stretch your writing muscles, if you like, the stories can get a little bit kind of stale, perhaps a little bit samey. And then originality starts to go out of the window and all of a sudden we've got AI writing stories for us (laughs).

Jennia: Before we go further, how would you define formal writing training?

Paul Brooks: I suppose that's really a structured course—whether that's online, or at university, or a college—that offers someone some kind of qualification at the end of them and gives them a skill in maybe creative or technical writing, or something like that. It's kind of school, if you like. And I was never very good at school, if I'm honest (both laugh).

Jennia: Yes. One of the things that I've seen come up again and again is people say, "Oh, but you're learning from a professional." But then we have to then look at another definition, which is how are we defining professional in this case? And how do we determine what that is? And do we even really have criteria that can be measured to determine if this person is a professional or not?

Paul Brooks: Oh, true, yeah, good point. I suppose online anybody can say that they're anything to anyone.

Jennia: Yes, exactly. And then even if we look at it based on this person as a bestselling author, well, what does bestselling author mean? Best selling on what list? Best selling for how long? And then what are the ratings and reviews like? Because some of these bestselling authors, when we look them up—and I'm talking about people that are selling maybe thousands and thousands of copies, but then we see that their average review is a 3.4 or a 3.2—Yeah. —so is that a qualification, and is that something that you should be weighing?

Paul Brooks: It's odd, isn't it? I mean, does everything have to boil down to the numbers, really, at the end of the day? I'm not so sure, but, yeah. I take your point.

Jennia: Do you think that there are different layers or steps that go into the formal writing training, such as maybe a class for beginners that might benefit almost all writers as they're starting out, versus something like an MFA in Writing, where only a select few might find true value from it?

Paul Brooks: Yeah, actually, I think that's a pretty good idea. If there is kind of a standard beginner writing course, if you like, that talks about story structure, what should go into a scene, character development, story, that kind of basic grassroots level stuff, just to give somebody like me—When I first started, I had no clue. I genuinely had no idea. I just had this story and I wanted to write it. And when I started to write it, and then I went onto YouTube and I saw a couple of videos, and they were talking about "show don't tell" and "What is that all about?" So something like that, that could give, the new writer some kind of foundation—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —that would be really good. That would be really—that would have saved me a lot of time, personally, I think. But equally, I think if you are doing, I don't know, maybe some kind of nonfiction or specialized subject, then—like an MFA, for example, could probably make it more appealing to maybe the audience that they're targeting. Then you—I think you need to be able to speak to that group at their level, at that level, and that might require some additional education, I suppose. Like, trying to write a medical textbook, for example, there's no way that I could do that.

Jennia: No. And if you didn't have the knowledge base to even double check it, how would you ever know? (laughs)

Paul Brooks: Yeah, exactly! Yeah, yeah. You could do more harm than good (laughs).

Jennia: I think that leads into the importance of accessibility to the reader. Because, like you were saying with those specialized topics, or even if you had a specialized topic, but you wanted to find a way to put that into a narrative format. So let's say you did write medical textbooks for a living. But now you wanted to write an intro to medical knowledge or medical science of some specialized genre or specialized field, and then how do you do that with the audience who's not going to have that same understanding or even know the jargon and those terms used? So I can see that maybe helping, too, just because it's such a 180 in writing style and even knowing how to format and structure what information you're trying to get across.

Paul Brooks: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. In fact, you know, I'm actually quite a lazy writer (Jennia laughs) in terms of educating myself, really. I don't do—I don't write practice pieces and things like that, like I  know a lot of other writers do. And, you know, if they can do that, I can take my hat off to them and say, "Wow, you know, I wish I could." I suppose that makes me quite lazy there, really, in that respect, because that's, I think maybe something that I should do. But I find that I just write, and then, like every other writer, I will write another draft, and potentially another draft, and then have it edited. And then, you know, so really what I'm doing is I'm getting my story out in a way that I feel at my level of understanding of the craft is good enough to provide, you know, a professional like yourself to then take my work and say, and we get the big red pen out and start striking stuff (both laugh), "Fail. See me after." You know, that kind of stuff. But, yeah, really, that's kind of what my thoughts on that, really.

Jennia: Going back to classifying yourself as potentially a lazy writer, I can see it having really the opposite effect, though, too, where it just becomes a form of procrastination. And even the same with enrolling in course after course. Once I finish this course and understand this, then I'll start writing. Or once I've done so many practice sets, then I'm going to begin my novel. And so I think, too, they can sometimes feed into those feelings of insecurity instead of helping us get over them, because it's almost like that the more you know that you don't know. And then what are you going to do with that information? Are you going to let that stall you, or are you going to let that propel you forward into "This is what I can do right now, and I can always do better in the future"?

Paul Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. And in actual fact, that procrastination, that attending and buying course after course, it is very common in the marketing world, really. People who want to break into marketing, they will just do one course, then another and another and another, gaining all of this knowledge, but not actually putting it into practice. I think that procrastination, that happens all the time. A real stumbling block for a lot of people. And I can see that in writing too, very easily.

Jennia: Yeah. Something we talked about before we were recording is talking about things like marketing. And this applies to writing as well. And that these trends and these things change so fast and so often that even if you've then taken this information and you're hoarding it for future use, by the time you might actually employ it, maybe it's out to date and it no longer works anymore. So really, what have you gained by procrastinating under the guise of, "I'm continuing to learn"?

Paul Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in marketing, we call it the shiny object syndrome. There's always something else, something better, something over there that's shinier than what I've just learned. So I'll go and buy that course. You know, that's very common. And I can see that with writers, I mean, really. And you—and I hear it time and time again, and you send lots and lots of videos and lots and lots of advices. Simply write. Just sit down and write. You know, that's it. It doesn't have to be brilliant. You know, it doesn't have to be Shakespeare. It just has to be authentically you on the page. And if you write every day, you're going to get better, and you're going to want to get better. And I think that's kind of a natural progression.

Jennia: I agree. I think the drive is really part of it. But the drive is probably also what convinces us that we should sign up for a writing course or enter a writing program. But maybe it's just taking that drive that's already internal to us, and that redirecting it along a different route.

Paul Brooks: Oh absolutely. And, you know, we can learn. And I've learned so much from people like Dean Wesley Smith, and Jerry Jenkins, and people like that. You know, I watch what they do. I learn from them in terms of their techniques and their skills, and I bring them into my own. Not that I'm emulating or trying to copy them as a writer. I still have my own style. The way that they critique their own writing, the things that they include and the things they look to scrub out, just make complete sense to me. So I suppose I'm trying to continue my education in that respect without going to buying course after course after course, you know?

Jennia: Right. And then, too, you also have that risk of, is that course really going to work for you? And this is something we see even on the more affordable side of self study or education, where, let's say, you spend $15 on a book and you realize this person's advice really isn't going to be a good fit for you. It's not the kind of life you lead. It's not how you prefer to write. Or let's say it is a person who says you have to do three prompts every day before you start your manuscript. Well, you know you can scrap that book and just toss to the side because that's not going to be a good fit.

Paul Brooks: Absolutely.

Jennia: And what do you do if you've invested in a $500 or $5,000, even, course? Because we do see some of these really climbing up there in terms of financial investment, only to realize that it's not going to work with what you know fits your personality and your writing style.

Paul Brooks: Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, for me, this is where the beauty of YouTube comes in. I will sit and just troll through the videos just to try and find something that, you know, sparks that relationship with whoever's presenting the video on myself. And so rather than spending thousands of dollars on the course, again, being the lazy writer (Jennia laughs), YouTube has always been, I suppose, a saving grace sometimes, for me, certainly. Because it's the second largest search engine—of course Google own it, anyway. But yeah, you can find pretty much anything if you're willing to do the work to dig in behind it.

Jennia: So you can't be totally lazy then, since there is still some work involved.

Paul Brooks: No, I know. I admit it. I do do some work, actually. But I'm actually an early riser. I kind of write first thing in the morning. We've talked about this before when you were on my podcast, but we were talking about editing and what I do. So whatever I write today, and I've written this morning, I will edit tomorrow morning before I start writing again. It kind of waves back. And that's actually a technique that I learned from Dean Wesley Smith, from his book Writing into the Dark, which is the classic Pantser Bible, really, if you like, because he just writes and then he—and then publishes. Edit be damned. Just there it is. You know, talking about courses in education, I think you—you're self educating, anyway. My second book is certainly better than my first. I learned an awful lot in terms of dialogue, how to structure it what makes it good, what makes it bad. But also, you know, story structure, show and tell, all of that kind of stuff—it's so much better in my second book than in my first. I think you kind of improve naturally. I think you can't help it. I think you just do.

Jennia: Oh, I totally agree. And I think that reinforces what you said earlier about practice. So one of the questions that I had, too, was making that distinction between education and practice. And where, maybe, does the value from one fall off and then the value from the other one rises and surpasses it?

Paul Brooks: Well, honestly, and I don't think you can do one without the other. You know, as I said before, education is practice, and practice is education in a lot of cases. So I'm not sure that one does drop off. However, I think you could potentially start to go down the fee-paying-course paying rabbit hole. Again, this is this shiny object syndrome I mentioned earlier on. So, again, you're kind of plotting your education in that respect, I suppose, if you're mindful of where you are. And, of course, your audience will tell you, too, you know, if all of a sudden you've gone from a five star to a three star, there's something going wrong here (Jennia laughs).

Jennia: And hopefully that's not after you've invested thousands of dollars in courses.

Paul Brooks: Quite right, absolutely.

Jennia: Because I could see that happening to feeling that you're influenced by whatever's being said, even if it doesn't at first feel natural to you. But then think, you know, we have that cognitive bias where we automatically believe someone who's in a position of authority, or who we perceive as being in that position of authority. And so we might naturally assume that whatever they're telling me must be the way to do it, even though that's not how I've undertaken this process so far. Or perhaps that's not the kind of character I create. But since they're saying that this is what will lead to mass market success, then that must be what I need to switch over to doing.

Paul Brooks: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of, I suppose it's—I'm taking a marketing analogy—it's the pyramid effect, isn't it? We only ever see the top fifth of it. We don't see what happens underneath. So if someone's saying to me that, you know, "I'm a bestselling author, New York Times bestseller, international bestseller, I've sold millions of books, therefore I must be really good. So follow me." And everyone goes, "Oh, yeah, okay." But—and then they try to emulate that, but what they don't see is the sacrifice, the education, the money that person has possibly spent underneath the waves because you're only seeing the top peaks of it.

Jennia: Well, then it goes back to also that some people do just have that innate skill, and so how are they really going to teach you something that they just know, or will you ever be able to emulate it or learn enough from it that you can reach that same level of whatever skill it is that they just have? And it's sort of, like, so I was a dancer for a long time. And you did see people who came in who were able to just immediately get the choreography down. They knew how to move their body, to copy whatever it is they were doing. Or even give their own spin to the moves so it still looked like the same dance, but perhaps better, or interpreted in a way that was uniquely them. And I feel like it's the same thing with writing. There are those people who just sit down and they just do it. They just know how. And it's not even the wording so much or the storytelling, but that they have that strong sense of voice, without being told how to develop voice. They just do it. So then how do you take those skills and tell someone else how to do what you're doing?

Paul Brooks: Yeah, teaching is a whole nother skill on its own—

Jennia: Oh, exactly! Yes. That's the other thing. Just because you're a great writer doesn't mean you'll be a great teacher.

Paul Brooks: Absolutely. Quite right, yeah. I mean, right—I think, you know, a good teacher is somebody who is approachable, personable, someone who's got a personality that, you know, gravitates people towards them. And then if they can then structure the information that they want to give that new audience, that kind of makes them a teacher, really, if you like. That will get their audience to start asking questions, and then you've got this discourse going backwards and forwards. And then you can then impart the information in your skill that you've gathered and gained over many years to the new faces that are there in front of you.

Jennia: Oh, I completely agree. And that is one thing I've thought about even when I've gone to different webinars or attended different courses, many of which I'm able to do as part of my work, thankfully. But, yes. So there might be someone who has a knowledge base that you envy, or they excel in something that you've always hoped to excel in, but they don't have those same skills in imparting and sharing that advice with other people. And I have heard, for instance, this was years ago when someone in the audience asked a question and they said, "That's just the way it is. That's just how I do it." And that was the answer. But that doesn't really guide any of us.

Paul Brooks: No, that's true. Of course, the other get out of jail free card is, "You go and find out, and then come and tell me after." That's the other way. I've sometimes heard teachers say that. And the thing with that is they have this blank expression on their faces when that question is coming at them, and they don't really know where to go. So they just throw it back and hope that that is enough of an answer for the student.

Jennia: (laughs) Feels a bit like those author interviews where they say, "What did such and such mean?" Then the author turns it around, "What did you think it meant?"—

Paul Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Jennia: —Trying to tease it out (laughs).

Paul Brooks: Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, awful.

Jennia: So do you—what are some of the benefits that you've heard people say they can find from these courses or formal education?

Paul Brooks: Oh sometimes there are some real "aha" moments, Moments, you know? The little things that you haven't thought about that strike you, and then you go, "Oh yeah, of course!" And those things stick—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —you know, you just remember those things. They don't ever leave you. Jerry Jenkins, for example, he does this, what he calls "ferocious self editing." And some of the things that he does—and one of the things, and I think we've said it before, is, "Cut the crap. Just say it."

Jennia: Yeah.

Paul Brooks: So you don't have to be so perfect and posh, just say it. And think little things like that and those things. But if you can find a course that provides and offers those things, that, to my mind, is money well spent. That's a good course.

Jennia: One of the main benefits, I've heard was—

Paul Brooks: And I think also trust.

Jennia: —Oh yeah, trust. Yes.

Paul Brooks: Yeah. It's that, you know, do you trust this person that I'm talking to? And you can kind of get a vibe from somebody, can't you? You know, if you're talking to somebody and they're kind of looking over here and down there and not actually making any eye contact or, you know, there's no confidence in what they're saying, you pick up on that immediately, you know, the moment they open their mouths. And I think sometimes even just their body language in terms of how they're sitting—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —and how they use their hands, those kind of things, you pick up on. And that first impression is—leaves such a huge impression that it's very rare that you can change it. And I think, you know, if you've got somebody who can talk, who can, instantly create that rapport with you, then you're far more willing to spend that money. And then also, that also means when you're watching their training, be it live or on video, then you're far more likely to find or hear those "aha" moments than if you've just spent $5,000 on somebody and you're sitting in the back on the chair with your arms folded, going, "Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh." (Jennia laughs) You know, and not really listening—

Jennia: But that word you just used, "listening," that's a key one too. When you're talking to them, are they really listening to you and saying how it will help you, or are they selling to you? Are they trying to convince you that they're right? That's something else that I would pay attention to.

Paul Brooks: Mm, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The classic car salesman—

Jennia: Yes!

Paul Brooks: —in that respect.

Jennia: I completely agree. And I think it also has to do something with, we talked on the podcast I filmed with you on your show, the vulnerability and the openness that comes between a writer and their editor and that relationship. And I think we need to extend that to the author or the writer, the author-to-be, and whichever person they're looking to for training or coaching. Do you have that same level of not necessarily vulnerability, but knowing that you could be, and are you comfortable with that or the possibility of it? Let's say you do have some questions, or there is something that you're going to have to share about your personal life in order to frame whatever it is you're going to be bringing to them—

Paul Brooks: Yeah.

Jennia: —And do you feel safe and comfortable doing that?

Paul Brooks: Yeah. That's it, isn't it? I really, I suppose, you know, if you're spending good money on something, what you don't want to feel is like that you are paying somebody just to do a job, if you like. You know, so if you've got that relationship and you do have that comfort with somebody, then enjoy it, because it's money well spent.

Jennia: Wow, that's excellent advice. One of the last things I like to ask (Paul says something, Jennia laughs)—which is why you're here and why you have your own podcast (Paul laughs). Which, I'm just going to plug it now (Page Turnerz, check it out!) People should definitely listen to it because you ask excellent questions as well.

Paul Brooks: For those who are listening, I'm actually blushing (both laugh).

Jennia: So one of the things we brought up in the beginning and which has come up again and again is even just that recognition that you might need a little bit of help or maybe you don't know something that maybe you didn't even realize you didn't know it beforehand. So, do you have any tips for how writers can recognize that?

Paul Brooks: Read your work out loud. I think you said that to me, actually, when we were talking. Read your work out loud, and if it sounds a bit hokey, then it probably is, you know, and it will need some work. And reach out to somebody. Don't be afraid to ask. I always said, "If you don't ask, you don't get." I mean, really, what's the worst thing that can happen? They just say, "No." Okay, fair enough. Move on. Try and find somebody else. Because somebody will say yes—

Jennia: Mhm.

Paul Brooks: —and you know, the writing community is so supportive, you know. And so, yeah, reach out. Don't—if you don't ask, don't get. you know, we have conversations with people every day. We're more than happy to help. I mean, I don't have an MFA. I know, I'm certainly nowhere near the qualifications levels that you've got. My goodness. But I'm more than willing to offer my experience, really, if you like. And I think that's the one thing that you can't teach. You can't teach experience. You just have to go through it.

Jennia: Yeah. Well said. Well, do you have any additional advice or insights that you'd like to share before we end that we didn't already cover?

Paul Brooks: I just say, enjoy the process. If you have a story that's burning away like I did, and I had to get it down, start writing it. Start writing it. It doesn't matter how it comes out. Just write it. You can start educating yourself afterwards. You can start reaching out and asking people like yourself, "How do I do this? How does that work? Where should this go?" Those sorts of things. If you've got the story, just write it.

Jennia: I love that. Thank you again, Paul.

Paul Brooks: You're very welcome. Thank you for inviting me!

Jennia: Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the [show notes] for additional information. And please join me next week when award-winning writing instructor and author Donna Levin visits. If you are working on your first draft and you feel stuck or you can't figure out how to start your novel, you'll want to listen, as she'll be offering tons of helpful advice to get over these hurdles. Thanks again!