289. Ethical Storytelling with Dante Terese

Author Dante Terese talks about what ethical storytelling means, the uses of "good versus evil" in narratives, and the difference in writing heroes and villains.
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Visit Dante's website:
https://www.danteterese.com/

Grab a copy of her latest book:
https://www.amazon.com/Base-Book-1-Dante-ebook/dp/B0D8V7HBG9?ref_=ast_author_mpb

Follow her on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/dante.terese/

Transcript

Jennia: Hello. I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Today we'll be looking into a topic we've never covered before, or at least not with it as the sole focus: ethical storytelling. And we're also going to look at how this plays a part when it comes to creating our characters. Author Dante Terese is passionate about this topic, and it's something she practices in her own work. This is, "Ethical Storytelling."

Jennia: Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here!

Dante Terese: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Jennia: Would you like to get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you write?

Dante Terese: My name is Dante, and I write. And some of my writing, I don't know where it comes from (Jennia laughs). But once I harness it or whatever, then I try to make it follow a path and make it more coherent. I want to make the things that I can see in my head, things that the reader can see in their head.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: You know, I don't want to take for granted—especially since some of the topics I have and some of the situations I have are pretty complex. I—The newest book, The Base: Book One, is actually military science fiction.

Jennia: Oh interesting!

Dante Terese: And so getting people to visualize something that doesn't yet exist—

Jennia: Yes!

Dante Terese: —requires lots of adjectives (both laugh), yeah.

Jennia: I can see why, yeah. Especially because, like you said, it doesn't exist. And so then how do you provide them with visuals to back up something where they might not already have a framework in mind that they can then build upon?

Dante Terese: So, that particular story, on the subject of ethical storytelling, we have three scientists living in a super top secret military base.

Jennia: Okay.

Dante Terese: And they are trying to finish a project by the deadline. But as I have learned from people that I've known in military bases, and also my father, who was a research scientist, is whenever you're researching something and it's a desirable item, there's always spies and thieves who want to steal that.

Jennia: Right (laughs).

Dante Terese: And so this whole story is really like a cat and mouse game between the scientists—who are genuinely good people who want to create something for the betterment of their country and everything like that—and the spies and thieves, who are really a bunch of lowlifes (laughs), to put it politely. But I don't overtly label them. I just—I don't want to insult the reader's intelligence. I want the reader to be able to take a look at the situation objectively and then make their own judgments.

Jennia: Right. That's something that's come up a few times with various interviews on this show, and it goes back to that age old advice about show, don't tell.

Dante Terese: Mhm.

Jennia: But even when we think about people in our own life, whenever there's someone who tries to impress upon you how kind they are or giving, generous, whatever it is, you always start to doubt it a little bit, because why are you trying to convince me? And I think it comes across the same way with our characters too.

Dante Terese: Well, I think so. And, like, I know different forms of scripture, they all sort of say, "Let the angels be the one to sing your praises. Don't sing your own praises."

Jennia: Before we get too far into this, how would you define ethical storytelling?

Dante Terese: Ethical storytelling. That is interesting. I think for me, there is an undercurrent of good and evil in my books.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: But like I said, I want the reader to sort of be able to do the compare and contrast, and make their own judgments. So I think, for me, it almost comes down to the way that you sort of want to, like, teach a child or someone who is around you. Like, if you're training someone at a job, or whatever, that you want to lead by example—

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: —and then you want to demonstrate the same thing over and over again with consistency. So the characters in the book that, you know, I would want people to think of as the good characters and stuff, they're very consistent in their choices and in their behavior. And then the villains are also very consistent. And so I think if I were to take an example, I have a character in the book, the Bug Man.

Jennia: Okay.

Dante Terese: And the three scientists are drawn from different parts of the country, and they're told you have to collaborate together on this project. But they're very, very different people with very different specialized areas of knowledge. And the Bug Man is an expert on insects—

Jennia: Well, that goes to figure (laughs).

Dante Terese: —Yeah. And the thing is, is that, you know, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to look at something like a helicopter and say, "You know, that does look like a dragonfly."

Jennia: Yeah.

Dante Terese: Maybe they borrowed some elements from an insect or whatever when they were making the design. So the Bug Man is an expert on insects and then designing military equipment with some of the features that insects have.

Jennia: Hmm.

Dante Terese: But he uses his God-given talent and then his obsession—Most people would not want to live with tanks of spiders in their houses and things like that. No, thank you. If there's a bug in my apartment, it's not paying the rent here, so it's leaving.

Jennia: (Both laugh) Right.

Dante Terese: Yeah. But the Bug Man is someone who is so—you know, has developed his skills to such a high level and has studied insects so much that he even has tanks of them in his home. But he uses his obsession and his God-given talents and stuff strictly for the furthering this mission and for the course of good and the things that he signed up for.

Jennia: Mmm.

Dante Terese: And so basically he has consistency.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: And then, you know, he maintains that with his coworkers and everyone else around him.

Jennia: Well, it sounds like it's consistency, but it's also motivations that back up that consistency or that keep that consistency going. It's not—

Dante Terese: Mhm.

Jennia: —Like you said, he's not doing it as some sort of side job to bring an extra income for himself or because he wants to create these dangerous mutations of spiders that will do his bidding. It's all, like you said, for the good. And so I think it's important for our listeners to hear that that, too, that, yes, consistency on its own sounds like a good thing, but there has to be something else wrapped up around that in order to make it a valuable trait.

Dante Terese: Yeah, it's the morass. I mean, you know, I'm sure—just working as a baker and pastry chef, I've had, you know, places try to steal recipes all the time—

Jennia: Ahh.

Dante Terese: —and, you know, I could be a bad person and sell a different company the recipe right when I'm working for this employer or whatever. But the Bug Man, I mean, sure there's spies and thieves that want to know every little thing that's going on with that project. But he's not... you know, he's walking away from any extras and stuff like that because he has the internal moral compass. He's going to, you know, stay—go with—stay with his convictions.

Jennia: I think that helps, too, just to show the adaptability of these different personality traits that we use in our characters. And that all it takes is tweaking them a little bit to take something where, for instance, with the Bug Man, it is good. It is helping people see that he has a moral compass and it gives them something to look up to, in a way. Whereas we could then take that same trait and twist it a little bit. And now what had been laudable in him is detrimental to society and another character.

Dante Terese: Well, that would pretty much describe the villains (Jennia laughs). Because the villains are just as driven, but their set of motivators is different. They are strictly about the money.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: And so basically, you know, they don't care if they take this invention away from even their own country—

Jennia: Ohh.

Dante Terese: —and, you know—and then sell it a someone who would willfully do harm on their country. For them, it's just the profit motive.

Jennia: Mhm. Right. Yeah, then, too, you also have that short-term outlook versus the long-term outlook. Is this really going to pay off for me five years from now, ten years from now, not just one week from now?

Dante Terese: That is also true. And then also just considering the impact of your actions on others. The people that are good and decent in the book, like, they operate with a set of mores that, you know, they're just simply not going to do certain things. But the villains will do just about anything as long as it results in a profit.

Jennia: Right. Which brings me to something that you'd said before the interview in our email exchange beforehand, which was the importance of not glorifying villains. And the two examples that you used were basing that on wealth or power. We've touched on power a little bit. But, yeah, even when you think back to a lot of villains that are really popular within just pop culture, you can see that a lot of them have either wealth or power or both. And that it almost makes them people to look up to in a way, since those are things that we do glorify in our culture or hold in high esteem. And so then it becomes, well, how do you separate the means from this result that we do hold in such high regard? And does that also then come down to a societal level of using fiction to say, maybe these aren't the things that we should be looking up to?

Dante Terese: Well, the thing is, is you know, in different cultures—like, in the culture I was raised in, I'm Sicilian. We were sort of taught when we were kids that there was good money and then there was money that wasn't good. And even though money is money, like, $100 will buy this and $100 will buy that. But if you get what they call "ill-gotten gains," like money, bad money—money from a bad source or endeavor—you know, that's not something that you really want to touch, I mean, if you still want to have a decent character and integrity. And that is a word that is becoming a word that we're only going to find in a dictionary if we keep going down this route. You know what I'm saying? Because integrity is, you know, when you just walk away from something because, no, that's not for me—

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: —Or, yeah, I understand I can make a lot of money doing that, but that's, you know... Look at the outcome of that. So it is about making choices. And there's also earned rewards. Like, the Bug Man and the other scientists really earned the ability to do so many things by intensive years and years of studying. But the villains, they just steal ideas. So they may be holding on to the new invention, but they didn't invent it. They don't know how to fix it. You know what I'm saying? They don't have the same reward that comes from, like, "It took me 30 years to learn how to do that."

Jennia: Right. But I think that can also then be used for why they crave more and more, because they don't have that same level of satisfaction. And we hear that even a lot about the difference between if you have to save for something for a long time, and then you're finally able to go out and purchase it, or go on that vacation, or whatever it is, versus if you just have the money handed to you.

Dante Terese: Correct.

Jennia: So do you think there's a way, though, to write villains where they do possess one of these things that society values? I'm just talking about American society as an example. But to show that maybe these aren't things that are worth having or that they could lead to a negative outcome.

Dante Terese: Well, what I tried to do when I did the villains is I tried to just show that if the reader had to make a choice between, would they rather be Max and Venus, or would they rather be the three scientists or something? Or would you rather live next door to Max and Venus, the villains?

Jennia: Ahh, right. I think it's worth noting, too, that the damage that they do to the neighborhood doesn't necessarily have to be physical, visible damage. Right, that it can be just that atmosphere or a feeling that now occurs whenever you're there. And anyone who's ever had an altercation with someone, or someone who just has not liked you without really seeming to have a reason, will know exactly what that feels like. That sense of unease as soon as you walk into their area, or you see them passing by you in the store, or whatever it is. So how do you do this, then, without it feeling like a morality lesson?

Dante Terese: For me, I had to make sure I wasn't heavy handed with the adjectives. And then also typecasting.

Jennia: Right.

Dante Terese: I didn't want to sit there and just go straight to the stereotype or typecast. Another thing is just the compare and contrast.

Jennia: Mmm.

Dante Terese: You know, you see these people, you see that they just pulled off a major heist doing this, and now they have all this money. And then you see the military family teaching their kids how to do a simple task and going through it with them a couple of times. And then, you know, always kind of shadowing the kids and keeping an eye on them and making sure that they instill the values that they want in those kids. And to me, the comparison, and the compare and contrast, you know, after a while, you just—you know, you just say, "Who would I rather be?" Or, "Who would I rather live next to?"

Jennia: I like that you use the question, "Who would I like to have live by me?" I think that almost forces more self-introspection than the other way around. Because when we think about just ourselves, it's easy to think, "Well, of course I want a private island, or to have my name on all these important buildings, or millions of dollars in the bank." But then when you turn it around, you have to really start thinking about it on a little bit of a deeper level. And then—Because then you're not just answering the question of this person or that person, you have to really start thinking about the reasons why that is. So then you're able to pick apart, like, "Well, maybe this really isn't such a great person to live around or to be because of x, y, or z."

Dante Terese: No, I have said that a lot. I mean, like, some people, you know, they'll turn a blind eye to something or this or that, and I'll just be like, "Well, would you want to live directly next door? Would you want this person in the apartment right next to you?"

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: Would you—And you get the whole package. You don't just get, you know, his DNA. You get his visitors. You get the occasional parole officer who's banging on the door, and then he won't answer. I mean, you—And, you know, do you want to sign up for that?

Jennia: Well, I'm even thinking about some of the villains that we've seen glorified a little bit in media where—you know, as this nice, sharp looking guy in a tailored suit or something, with a private driver and the accoutrements that go with it.

Dante Terese: Right.

Jennia: But it's not even just his clientele and that sort of thing coming in. But if he decides he has a problem with you now, what you have to face and worry about. What if he feels that your tree is hanging over his fence a little too closely? Is that something that's going to come to an amicable resolution? Or is that something where maybe you have to worry that you're going to wake up one day and have all your trees ripped out of your yard? So I think it just goes to show that it's going to just cross this entire spectrum of villains that no matter they're standing, it's really all just about that person on their own and what they're capable of, and what boundaries they are and are not willing to cross in order to have what they want.

Dante Terese: No, that's true. I've seen that play out a lot. And another thing that I've seen, which is kind of heartbreaking. Through the volunteer work I do, we distribute clothing and other essentials to people that are getting back on their feet and stuff. And just seeing the collateral damage. I mean, like, sometimes they glorify, you know, different people, like rock stars or whatever—

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: —who talk about how they got their start selling drugs or whatever. We'll just use that, an example. And then I see the people who are rebuilding themselves after that. And their kids. And it's a gut punch. You know, I don't see the glory, I don't see the magic, you know? I mean, you can have the beautiful car, you can have the manicured lawn, and all of those things that you get from that tax-free money that is basically sort of enslaving a percentage of the population to chemicals. But then the collateral damages, you know. Their kids have been in an unstable environment. And these people now need to rebuild their lives.

Jennia: Yeah. That brings to mind the Wolf of Wall Street, because his now ex-wife, she has now written a book that talks about what her life was really like there. And these are people where, on the surface, you'd think they really seem to have everything. Alll this money. They're both incredibly good looking. They can do what they want, when they want. But, yeah, she talks about what their life was really like and it just sounds horrendous. At least for her.

Dante Terese: Well, and then also there's a degree of emptiness in it. We do gratify ourselves when we help others. When you help someone, you help yourself.

Jennia: So for critics who would say that it's not the author's responsibility to uphold this type of ethical storytelling, how would you respond to them?

Dante Terese: Well, I would respond to them by just saying, you know, drive around a few different areas and take a look. Like, you know, go—there's an area in this town that, while the sun is up, is okay, but after the work day in general for people is over. Like after around 6 o'clock, I mean, it gets really dicey. There's a lot of families, a lot of kids who still live in that area. And you'll hear gunshots. You know, you'll hear, you know, sirens. I've seen SWAT teams, you know, trying to diffuse situations and stuff like that. And then you have to always kind of look at, the pen is very mighty. And so anytime that we are in front of a means of mass communication... And, I mean, for a long time, there wasn't mass communication. Now we are in—We're living in an era where we are on all the time and where every moment of our lives is being recorded for posterity.

Jennia: Mhm.

Dante Terese: But we have to realize there's a big sense of responsibility that comes with that. If you do—If you are a privileged person—as myself, and I thank you for that,—and you get to be in front of a microphone talking to someone who is going to talk to others and show you to other people, you have to say to yourself, "Am I going to put something positive out there or am I going to, you know, just make things worse?" And you don't put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it.

Jennia: That leads me to a related question, and your answer might be the same. And that is coming not necessarily from critics of this, but other authors who might say that it limits their creative freedom. So then what would you say to them? Would it be pretty much the same, or do you think it would differ a little bit?

Dante Terese: No, I would say that we do see people who make a lot of money doing bad things, in my opinion. You know, I don't like it when they glorify someone who says, you know, "I used to be a dealer, and I made all these millions of dollars tax free, and that's how I funded my artistic endeavors and stuff like that." And then, then they don't—But you don't see them do something like, "I'm going to make a rehab center now because I know what I contributed to, you know, to get where I am." And you don't see people try to rectify things when they know that they were part of that collateral damage and stuff.

Jennia: What are your thoughts, then, on morally gray characters, where they might do something that we would consider bad—I'm just using "bad" for the sake of simplicity—but overall, they do have good intentions?

Dante Terese: So sometimes, you know, there's a gray area. I mean, there's no complete, you know, black and white, right or wrong. You know, you kind of got to sus that out with situations.

Jennia: Well, I thought of one more question just now as you were sharing this. And that would be, how can authors read their own work and make that self-assessment for maybe, are they glorifying something that shouldn't be glorified? Or is there a way that they can pull back enough to objectively look at it?

Dante Terese: I would say that, you know, you don't want to stereotype. You don't want to pile a ton of adjectives on a character and stuff. And then without letting the readers sort of come to their own judgment. But, you know, you also don't want to condone it and be like, "Wow, this guy's great," you know, and make him into a hero. You know? There's a difference between someone who has a lot of material things and a lot of financial things, and a hero.

Jennia: Yeah, so true... Well, thank you again.

Dante Terese: Thank you so much!

Jennia: And thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information. And then please join me when Ari Rosenschein returns. And he'll be telling us what the music industry taught him about book marketing. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'd appreciate it if you could rate or review this podcast on your favorite listening platform. Thanks again!