288. Environmental Themes in Literature with Kate Brandes

Author and geologist Kate Brandes discusses creative writing from a scientist's perspective, the current trend of environmental literature, and why community is still at the heart of the genre.
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Visit Kate's website:
https://katebrandes.com/

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https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B01L43F67S

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. We often use literature to explore real-life issues, concerns, and fears, as well as what is happening in the world around us. Author, educator, and scientist, Kate Brandes is here to offer her well-informed insights into all of these topics, as well as how she's represented it in her own work. This is, "Environmental Themes in Literature."

Jennia: First, it's lovely to have you here!

Kate Brandes: Thank you for having me! Very much looking forward to talking with you.

Jennia: Yes, same! Well, you have a very diverse background and I'd love to hear about some of it and how that led you to writing.

Kate Brandes: Sure. I'm a scientist. That's my sort of day job, I guess you could say. I have a very kind of logical mind, and I've always been interested in science and I'm actually a geologist. That's the science I do. Started—you know, when I was in high school, I sort of knew that I wanted to be a geologist, although I didn't really know what that meant at the time.

Jennia: Ahh.

Kate Brandes: But I went to college and unlike most people who get there and sort of change their—you know, kind of figure out what they're doing, I sort of stayed. You know, I was, like, "I want to be a geologist, I guess." (laughs).

Jennia: That is rare! (laughs)

Kate Brandes: I know, it's very rare. And then I worked in that field and I really didn't think about doing anything creatively, like writing creatively or anything, until I was really in my mid thirties. In part it's because I just never conceived of myself as somebody who would do that. Not even that I could do it, but that I would do it because, you know, I think we all get sort of—you know, we sort of have a definition for ourselves, perhaps.

Jennia: Yes! Exactly.

Kate Brandes: But then—I have mentioned this, you know, many times in different interviews and things that, you know, I can't really exactly understand why I decided that I wanted to write creatively, but it has something to do with the birth of my first son. When I was in my mid thirties, I had my first baby. And, you know, so that time period, I was working full time, had a new baby, but that's when I decided that I was interested in creative writing. And, you know, I would read books about, you know, how to write fiction at night, and I would just try to (both laugh)—you know, I wake up really early in the morning and, you know, it was kind of crazy. It was actually crazy—

Jennia: (laughs) I can only imagine.

Kate Brandes: —Yeah. But, you know, I guess it speaks to my drive, and somehow, like, real—And it wasn't I was driving myself. It was really coming from inside of me that I really was trying to do this thing. And it took me, you know, a long time to write my first short story. And then ten years to write my first novel. So, you know, it was definitely something I learned by doing over time and doing wrong, repeatedly (laughs).

Jennia: That's how we learn everything, though.

Kate Brandes: Yep! That's what I, you know, I tell—I teach now. I didn't—I was not always a teacher, but I teach now, and I tell my students that failure is part of learning. It's part of the process. It's something to be proud of. You know, that means you're taking a risk and you're trying something new. And anyway...

Jennia: How much of that scientific background influences what you write about?

Kate Brandes: That's a good question. I am, as I mentioned, a trained geologist. But really, my focus, in my professional life has been environmental science. So I teach now. But again, I wasn't always doing that. So really, the majority of my career I worked with different community members who were facing, you know, some environmental problem. My role in one way or another—I've worked for many different groups, but one way or another, I was always kind of the translator between what was happening on, the ground and in that community. You know, and that there were technical things that the community maybe didn't understand. And so I always saw myself as kind of a translator between, you know, the community, the problem, how to solve the problem, who was supposed to solve the problem, and how it could get done. You know, I'm a scientist, but I'm also really interested in community and how those two things come together. And that's definitely a theme that runs through my novels. There's, you know, I have two. The Promise of Pierson Orchard was my first novel in 2017. And then this new one, Stone Creek, is—also has that theme of, there's an environmental kind of topic, but there's a community, and there—you know, that's sort of at the crux of both of those novels, those kind of topical themes.

Jennia: Do you think that your experience being the translator, taking that information and putting it perhaps in layman's terms, made it easier for you to ensure that what you wrote about would be accessible to various readers?

Kate Brandes: I think it helped a little. I mean, that's certainly—like, when I was trying to learn to write creatively, that was a big shift for me to be able to introduce some of those ideas without it seeming like some sort of textbook or something. You know, because of course, like, you know, before I started writing creatively in my mid thirties, I wrote a lot. I wrote all kinds of technical documents. I wrote things that, you know, had a lot of different readers, but they weren't the broad public, and it was not a story. And so I really had to learn how to write about those kinds of topics in a story format. Which means that I try to take out as much as possible. You know, technical things that don't matter to the story, and just really honor the story. And so it did take me a really long time to do that. And I'm always even, you know, with new work still, you know, there's too much in there and I pull things out and try to—you know, we all do this, I guess, really, no matter what, when we're writing a novel (laughs).

Jennia: Yes! I was thinking, even with my—my one daughter's in high school and she'll sometimes ask me to help with essays. And, granted, I do edit all day long, but yes, so I'll sometimes go through and say, "But why did you include that here? How is this helping your argument? What does this have to do with this?" So, yes, the same thing with when we're writing.

Kate Brandes: Yeah. Yeah, It's interesting because I've learned that the story comes first. Right? So it's, like, what's the story? And then what's relevant to that particular thing? And then that has helped me understand what to include and what not to include. And so, yeah, that's helped me focus on those sort of more technical details, like what to have in there and what not to have in there.

Jennia: But I think that's important, too, especially for anyone who wants to write a similar type of story. Just because it could become easy to become almost overwhelmed by this amount of information you have, and how much you should include, and how much you should leave out. How much is necessary to really explain this to the reader in a way that they're going to understand not just the concept, but why it matters and why it's important.

Kate Brandes: Right, exactly.

Jennia: Well, so looking at this from a little bit of a broader perspective now, what are some of the environmental themes that you've seen come up the most often, not just within your own mind when you're coming up with a brainstorming session or something, but even just in other literature?

Kate Brandes: You know, this is not something that I really write about specifically, but climate fiction or Cli-Fi, as it's termed, is a really big one. Many people are writing about this. I would say that's the majority of—kind of environmental literature right now is focused on that in one way or another. And makes sense to me because it's in the consciousness of so many people, and, you know, we don't know what the future holds. And so trying to imagine, you know, and having all these imagined futures, and thinking about that. I think it's a great fodder for discussion. That's what I mostly see.

Jennia: Mhm. So I think a lot of people, if we were to just bring up this name alone, they'd probably think of Silent Spring, and then that would be where they would think that this began. But have you seen changes throughout time over just even how we define environmental themes?

Kate Brandes: Yeah, you know, that's a really good question, and it's one that I'm kind of interested in too. I have read a lot of environmental writers, and I continue to, of course, be interested in that writing. So maybe not even so much fiction but—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: —people who write about nature, nature writing, and that kind of thing. And I think that it, you know—I mean, just, like all of our literature in the beginning, you know, it was written by, you know, men (laughs). And what has changed, I think, so much, and particularly in the last decade, is the diversity of voices. And the diversity of ways in which people write about nature. And I think that's really fantastic because I think it's so needed because nature, I think—In some ways it is, like, this can be this exclusive club kind of feeling that only certain people are allowed in nature. Only certain people can write about nature. And I mean it in all kinds of ways. Like, we think of nature writing as, like, well, you know, somebody's in the deep forest, and they're writing about the birds and whatnot. But, I mean, nature can also be on the urban street corner, right? It can be, you know, can be the weeds and things growing in the cracks and whatever. I mean, so I think the—that sort of bigger conversation now about nature and environment is so crucial.

Jennia: Yeah.

Kate Brandes: Because if we don't all have a way of connecting with it, then we can't care, you know? So... yeah.

Jennia: I agree. I think that's an excellent point. Because I think a lot of people besides that book also think about Walden or something similar. And they think about, yeah, that it is someone who has this free time even to be immersed in this peaceful, calm place. You know, the pond nearby and trees everywhere, right? And that we've formed this very limited view of what that even means. So that goes to another question that I had, which was, do you think there are stereotypes about what exactly environmental fiction is?

Kate Brandes: Yeah, for sure I think there is. I almost am reluctant to say that I write in the genre a little bit because I think that people, one, think that it's going to be me preaching to them about something—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: —which I really avoid. And I, you know, and I don't think anybody loves those books so much. I—And I think that they maybe will conceive of it as, you know, that it won't be a very exciting story and that it won't be interesting. There won't be even people in it. You know, (laughs) there is a little bit of that perception that I think goes back to, you know, what I was speaking about before with, like, that traditional sort of nature writing. So I do—you know, families and community is always at the heart of my stories. And so I tend to describe it first is—you know, in both cases, in both novels, it's a family drama, first and foremost. And then, you know, maybe I'll describe like the, you know, some of the details that get to those environmental elements. But I think there's definitely preconceived notions.

Jennia: It might feel like a separate question, but in a way, it's really not. And this is something that comes up pretty often on the show about how the different aspects of writing are really intertwined as we bring that story into a whole piece. But that is, how do you then separate and say, "Well really the story is about this character who's going through this and learns this," but then it also has this piece here where, for instance, her father was an eco-terrorist?

Kate Brandes: Mhm.

Jennia: But how do you combine that so readers really know what to focus on? Or it might attract the right audience?

Kate Brandes: Yeah, that's a good question. And I mean, it is a challenge a bit to describe the story, but I usually try to just start out with—I start out with my protagonist character who, her name is Tilly in Stone Creek. I start out with—you know, the story takes place in two timelines, in 2006 and 2023. You know, I usually share with people that in 2006, she's been raised by her father, who's an eco-terrorist. And that's how I kind of explain it. And that she's raised kind of in isolation until she's 13—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: —and very much indoctrinated with his ideas. And then when she's 13, he leaves and she has to sort of find her way in the world without having really lived in it in a lot of ways. And so, that's how I try to introduce the story a little bit and bring in that environmental piece a little bit. And, you know, people will be like, "Well, what's an eco-terrorist? And what does he do?" And that helps to, like, lead into some of those things.

Jennia: Do you think by keeping it character focused—not just the story itself, but even the description of a story—does help break away from some of those stereotypes?

Kate Brandes: I do. I do. Because then it becomes a story about the people and who they are and. the community. And, of course, I think that's a lot more interesting—

Jennia: Right.

Kate Brandes: —You want to hear that people want to know about the characters and what happens to them and the people. So I really think about, like, the environmental elements as more of a contextual kind of piece, you know?

Jennia: Mmm. That's a really interesting way of looking at it, but it also makes sense. And I'd love to hear that more about how you did that specifically with Tilly, without obviously giving away too much of your story.

Kate Brandes: Oh yeah. No, that's okay. I mean, I don't mind talking about the story. So her father, Frank Stone—it's Tilly Stone and Frank Stone. Her father, Frank, is an eco-terrorist, as I mentioned. His way of sort of protesting is to blow up dams in the northeast. So Tilly helps him with this. She actually sets the bombs. You know, as a young child, and then through the time that she's 13. And then—He loves her. You know, it's—he's not a completely bad father (both laugh). You know, he's a complicated human. But he decides to, you know, take her to sort of live a normal life, although he has other secretive things that he's not sharing with her. And, you know, that's the part in the story in which for a while, things go really well for them. But then, he leaves, and under mysterious circumstances and things. You know, he returns after being gone for 17 years. In the meantime, her father Frank has gotten sort of this very strong online following. Like, people in the subculture are sort of, like, revere him—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: —And she has to contend with this for 17 years of people knocking on her door and being like, "What's it be like to be Frank Stone's daughter?" And he's got this level of fame, and no one knows who he was except for her, right?

Jennia: Right.

Kate Brandes: —So it's like this strange situation where she has very complicated feelings about her father, about what they did together, and yet she has to contend with all of these people sort of honoring him. Meanwhile, the town that they live in, that she lives in—her small town—is annoyed with all of these outsiders always coming in. So it creates a tension there. So those are the kind of tensions that I try to build in the story—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: —and kind of the context. So, you know, it's really like she so desperately wants to be part of this community. And so as I was thinking about the story, you know, that's her number one goal, she wants to be part of the community, and sort of resolve things with her father. But that's hard to do. But I thought about it, "Well, how can I build attention with her and this community? And what ways in which can I do that?" So that's how I kind of built the story. And then again, the environmental details are sort of just part of the context of all that.

Jennia: So you talked before about how people don't want a message that is preachy. And even just from the summary that you've given, I can get an inkling of how you've avoided that in your own work. So, for instance, the people that support Frank, that's obviously going to be a much different mindset than what Tilly herself possesses as she's older and what the community possesses. And do you think that it's sharing some of those various mindsets without necessarily judging them or labeling them that helps create this feeling that one way isn't being shared as being better than another?

Kate Brandes: Yeah, I'm—You know, I mentioned that I've been an environmental scientist, and I've been working in that field for 30 years. So, like, I—of course I care about the environment passionately. And clean water, clean air, all that stuff, of course. But, you know, I have also—because I've been in so many communities and talked to so many communities and dealt with so many problems—I understand how complicated each of these things are and how many sides to the story there are. And it's not black and white. It's not a clean cut answer every time. And I actually think, you know, the complexity of things around environmental issues are, and around family issues—the complexity of everything—

Jennia: Right.

Kate Brandes: —I think, is so much more interesting than it being, like, right or wrong, you know? So I really do try very hard to explore that in my stories. I do, like characters, you know, that are not all good, not all bad. You know, they're complicated. I like complicated stories that don't have a clean answer. One of the best pieces of writing advice that I've ever gotten was that I should love my characters, and that includes, you know, maybe the bad ones, you know?

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: And think that is so important. That has really helped me more than any other piece of writing advice, I would say. I mean, there's—There There are a lot of good pieces of writing advice (Jennia laughs). I mean, that's an overstatement, I don't know. But it really has. Like, it's forced me not to take a side. Right? With them. Like, it forces me to write characters that are motivated to do what they do for good reason. Even if we don't, as readers, agree. Even if I don't personally agree with them, I still have to give—you know, their motivations are still what they are because of who they are and their past and things of that kind.

Jennia: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I really think that it's those types of characters, too, where we're able to figure out on our own, as readers, if you agree with someone or not. But, yeah, it's that same thing. We talk about empathy all the time and how we can build empathy through reading and these various perspectives and seeing them. So even if we might not agree with what Frank did, we can still at least form an idea of the why behind it, even if we think that why is completely (laughs) not anything we would ever do.

Kate Brandes: Yeah.

Jennia: Yeah. So, for other authors who might want to write similar types of stories, would you suggest that they do research beforehand so they don't end up perhaps oversimplifying something that's used as a plot point?

Kate Brandes: For me, if—I love research. Oh, I love research. But I think that, for me, it is a bit of a procrastination technique. So I guess I think that—you know, my advice would be to write the story, figure out what the story is, and then do the research. You know, maybe there's some broad stroke kind of researchy things to do. Just, like, "Is this possible?" type thing (laughs).

Jennia: Right.

Kate Brandes: But I guess I think that, at least for me, I could spend so much time there and then just never write the story. So I kind of think keeping it simple. So I would say that's one of the things that I've learned. Don't make it too complicated. And then it gets easy. You know, it's a little bit easier on yourself.

Jennia: We talked a little bit about the different genres where you might find environmental themes. Do you think there's a way, perhaps, that differs in how readers digest it when it's fiction versus nonfiction, or even just fiction and science fiction?

Kate Brandes: No, that's a really good question. I mean, I know many people who are interested in environmental topics, and they almost strictly read nonfiction. And I don't—you know, I think people maybe don't trust in—you know, they're maybe looking for factual information rather than wanting to explore those kind of more emotional stakes that is in fiction for whatever reason. But also interesting to think about regular fiction versus science fiction. I think that's a super interesting question. You know, I think people who are reading science fiction are often looking for the "what ifs" in some ways, like a futuristic kind of, like, "What could happen? What are the possibilities?" And I love that genre for that reason. I think it can be so powerful. I'm not a huge science fiction reader, but when it works, that is just such an interesting genre, I think, from that standpoint. I mean, personally, I love the idea of exploring some of these topics in just fiction and really focusing on, like, family-community type level fiction. You know, I'm really interested in community, and I love the idea of being able to talk across lines. And at the core of it, I think some of these environmental issues are those things. They're the community problem that we all can sort of view unitedly, talk about, and share. So for me, that's the interesting thing.

Jennia: What do you think the stories would lose if you left out that community aspect? How do you think they would suffer as a result?

Kate Brandes: I think that they—That would take a little bit of, well, maybe all of the heart out of it in some way. The heart and soul. For me. I think particularly maybe for my—Because I have such an interest in community and community dynamics and, like, the history of palce and how people come together. And how each community is different for whatever—you know, based on history and things like that. You know, I wouldn't necessarily be very interested in writing about it.

Jennia: Yeah. So even some of the quest—or some of the answers you provided in talking about community is what led to the question about—I don't want to say regular fiction. But regular fiction and science fiction because we almost see then the environment as metaphor, where we do see perhaps some sort of dystopian future, where the environment has just gone into a landslide of where we don't want it a go. But we also see that breakdown of community that accompanies it. So then it's, like, well, how—you know, you see that tie then, between the two, and how they are linked, at least in a way.

Kate Brandes: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I hadn't even thought about that. That a lot of, like, the Sci-Fi that deals with the environment is a dispersal or like a breakdown of community. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of it, but that's absolutely true.

Jennia: Well, so I personally think that we're seeing a lot more of this type of writing come up—

Kate Brandes: Mhm.

Jennia: —And do you think there's a reason why that is?

Kate Brandes: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I can think of is, you know, I know I myself, I'm just—The divided times that we live in, you know, it's hard—it's very difficult. And I think, I don't like that. I want us, you know, as a people to be more united and at least be able to talk about things—

Jennia: Mhm.

Kate Brandes: And so that's my—you know, in some ways, that's part of the core of it for me. And what I—what I keep—you know, I guess what I'm thinking about and then what translates into my fiction. I imagine that's true for, you know, many creative people who are, you know, trying to make work right now. Like, it's—You can't not see that or feel that division. That would be my guess.

Jennia: Well, thank you so much for sharing all this. And if listeners would like to learn more about you or more about your books, where can they do that?

Kate Brandes: So I have a website. katebrandes.com. All one word. So they could go there.

Jennia: Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information. And please join me next week when Dante Terese joins us to talk about ethical storytelling. Thanks again!