308. Memoirs and the Principles You Should Know with Wendy Dale

Author and memoir writing teacher Wendy Dale discusses the important steps in writing a memoir, the exceptions to "show don't tell," and why you should beware of online tips.

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Visit Wendy's website:
https://www.geniusmemoirwriting.com/

Check out her writings:
https://www.wendydale.net/writings.html

Follow Wendy on social media and her YouTube channel:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendy-dale-46357a31/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWNB_9sueDyJCvxFP9x6WWw

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole-person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. We've all probably read or heard that there are proven writing tips, or seen those lists about the "Five Writing Tips You Should Follow for Success." But are there times we might be better off avoiding that advice? Wendy Dale is the founder of Memoir Writing for Geniuses, and she's a seasoned memoir writing coach who spent 15 years reading thousands of imperfect manuscripts to figure out the components that make all memoirs work. The result is the book the Memoir Engineering System, which will be published in January 2025. And she's here today to tell us why most writing tips are wrong.

Jennia: Well, first, it's lovely to have you here and I'm so excited for this conversation!

Wendy Dale: That's how you introduce me, I love it, Jennia! Yes, most tips are wrong. [I have] my own writing tips, but they tend to be a little bit different than what is out there, so yes.

Jennia: Well, since you have so much experience with memoirs, I'd love to start there. So what are some of the most popular tips that you've seen given to memoir writers?

Wendy Dale: Tips is not necessarily where I go, but I think the writing tips in general—

Jennia: Okay.

Wendy Dale: —are what I tend to take issue with. There's a lot of crossover between memoir writing and fiction and I see a lot of tips. I mean, my students, they laugh at me becausee I can't say show don't tell without getting sort of riled up. And I think it's because it's really misinterpreted. So show don't tell, which is, you know, a classic. We grew up with this. I don't know a writer who has not heard of show don't tell. And so it's almost blasphemy to touch this show don't tell. And it's not that it's wrong, but it is misinterpreted. And so what I see—and it really frustrates me because I've seen so many writers make their writing worse because the way show don't tell is explained is incorrect. Let me give you an example.

Jennia: Mhm!

Wendy Dale: It's usually explained if you[r] online whatever you read, whatever your go to guru is so many of them talk about show don't tell as you don't want to tell, you want to create this visual experience for your reader and that means you don't want to tell us how your characters are feeling. You want us to show. And I see examples like this all of the time. So instead of talking about how angry Henry was, you describe his bulging vein in his neck and his red face and his clenched fists. Well, you can do that, but you also need to tell. I have a YouTube channel and I use examples—I talk about show don't tell a bit—examples from Nobel award-winning authors. And they're telling all the time. Right?

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: And so it's really commercial fiction—thrillers, romance novels, there is more showing than telling. But on the more literary side of the spectrum—and memoir is always going to be a bit of a literary genre because it's never going to be twists and turns. It really is more based on the prose and character development. And you really need to tell us what your characters are feeling, what your characters are going through. People misunderstand what show don't tell really means, and it makes their writing worse. And it becomes this very visual experience. And it's not an emotional one. By telling people things, that's how you affect them emotionally. Tell me what Henry was feeling. Tell me what you were feeling. Give me the thoughts that went through your head. And that makes for good literary writing.

Jennia: I know exactly what you mean. And I know that I, as an editor, have said show don't tell a few times and the way that I've explained it. But yeah, I do try and go deeper with what are they feeling here? How can we bring that out on a deeper emotional level, not that surface level visual like you're talking about? And which I have seen a lot of advice say—where it will say something like, "Show us that they smiling," or, "Say that their heart rate is picking up its pace" or something like that. Which we do too, and it can work also. I think a lot of that also depends on the genre and just how much introspection your character is expected to have or what the audience is okay with.

Wendy Dale: Exactly. It does depend on the genre. So I do think show don't tell has its place in memoir writing.

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: Now, I don't use it with my students because I don't want them to misinterpret it. So I kind of tweak the phrase. But what that really means when it comes to a lot of fiction as well, that people describe a bunch of things happening to them really quickly—

Jennia: Yes!

Wendy Dale: —So let me give you an example (both laugh). So, "That night I went out on my first date with James. Two weeks later, he'd already proposed to me. And a month later we got married." And I really see this kind of writing in memoir itself. And it's just way too much information too fast.

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: So when I say to you, you know, "Two weeks later, he proposed to me," I mean, you don't want—And then the next sentence to be, "And then we got married a month later." You want to live through this moment of him proposing to you. That is the showing that this phrase is referring to. So what I tell my students, don't tell me your events, show me. When something happens—What was his name? James? Greg? I forgot his name already (Jennia laughs). So—I think it was James. So when James proposes to you, I want to live through this moment with you. I want you to transport me. When something happens, you need to give me a scene. And a scene means putting me there with you. So that, for me, is what show don't tell really means.

Jennia: Yeah, I 100 percent agree, and I do feel (laughs) vindicated because this is the type of comment that I'll sometimes leave for my authors also. Yeah, about let's not rush through this. Let's really experience this with the character, even if that character in this instance is you as the memoir writer, let us feel what it was like with you.

Wendy Dale: Yes, you have felt it, but it doesn't apply all the time. I don't think you're marking things off because—

Jennia: Oh, no, there are definitely moments you can just skip over it. Yeah, exactly too. And then also, how much weight does this moment have? Is there going to be some emotional turning point here? Was this a massive event in your life that would shape later events that we need to know about and this is foreshadowing, or is this just a little blip that we need to get from this chapter to the next chapter and we can sort of just skate over it?

Wendy Dale: So do you find that you have that with fiction? They have this problem as well? Because I really work with memoir writers. Do you find the same thing, that they're including things that just aren't important?

Jennia: Yes! And I do think also it depends on the author as well and even just some of the ideas they might have, where they may have seen tips where it said, like, you should always have this as a pinch point, or you should have this kind of scene, or you should include this before you hit your midpoint. And so then they feel pressured to put that in, and it just sort of gets wedged in there, but it doesn't really belong. Or they might think that they need all this backstory, but the backstory doesn't really make a difference in whatever story it is they're telling overall. So we might hear about some, I don't know, experience that this person had when they were 10, but it has no relevance to the rest of the story. And I know we see that a lot with memoir, too, those first drafts where it doesn't really fit, but here it is.

Wendy Dale: And it's especially with memoir writers. It brings out different challenges. You're talking about backstory, right? And so people will start their books, and let's say it's a book about becoming a registered nurse—

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: —you know, for the sake of example. My Experience Becoming a Nurse, I just made that up. So I don't wanna start my book with going to college. I don't wanna start with studying to become a nurse. Instead, I need to go back to when I was eight and how I took care of all of my siblings when they were sick. And I'm like, okay that's valid, can be important to in your memoir about becoming a nurse. However, that doesn't mean we need to start your book when you were eight. Right? They want to start their book about being a nurse when they were eight, and I'm like, well, this is really backstory. And I tell them, you know, when you meet someone for the first time, you strike up a conversation with a stranger on a plane, you don't start by saying, "Hi there, nice to meet you, my name's Wendy. Let me tell you about my childhood," right? (both laugh). I mean, so you start by saying, you know, "What do you do?" And you go deeper and deeper as time progresses. And so that backstory is actually incredibly personal and deep. It's not that it doesn't belong in your book, but that's not the first thing your reader gets to know—

Jennia: Exactly!

Wendy Dale: —You put it in a little bit later, as we get to know you, the same way you would get to know someone over time, and then you would learn about what they went through in their childhood.

Jennia: (laughs) I use a very similar example in my world-building seminar, which exactly is that because a lot of fantasy, or speculative fiction, will sometimes open and you see it in first draft of that giant info dump of world building. And I've said the same thing, you don't get onto an elevator with someone and just say, "Hi, let me tell you everything about the founding of this country and what made it what it is today. But first we have to go back 500 years. Hold on." The person doesn't care yet. They have no interest in this. You are just rambling to an uninterested party. So, yeah, the whole point first is that you have to get them interested, get them involved, and then we can start supplying this information.

Wendy Dale: And also set up what your book's about!

Jennia: Yes!

Wendy Dale: Because if your book's about being eight years old and taking care of your family, deep down, it is. And as a memoir writer that can feel really counterintuitive, because the whole reason they're writing the book is because that's what mattered to them. They want the world to know why they became a nurse. A lot about memoir writing can be very counterintuitive. What you remember happening to you is not necessarily a good book. You have to turn what happened to you into plot, and that's tough (laughs).

Jennia: You think that because some of was counterintuitive, that's why people then do look for these tips to help them go through that whole process and figure out what to add and what not to add?

Wendy Dale: Can I tell you, in my experience, people don't realize they're making mistakes. That is one of my biggest challenges, is I will get a manuscript and [I'm] helping them understand why it's not working. And I do empathize with them a lot because the first time I wrote a memoir, I thought it was great to—[I] mean it took me years to do this manuscript, but I'm like, "This is great!" And it wasn't. So I really empathize with people because this idea that what you remember happening to you feels like, "Wow, that's the story of my life." But it's not really a story. And so that is one of the biggest problems I have working with people is helping them understand that what they remember happening in their life is not plot. They're remembering far too many things. And it sounds a little bit like you have that same issue as well. I think it's just more pronounced with memoir writing because they have a memory of it happening to them.

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: And so getting people to let go of some of these memories and add in ones that we're missing to create plot is a big thing that I'm up against. And having people realize that what they've written down is not working as a book. I have a lot of people describe their life. So I don't know—I'd be interested if that happens in fiction as well. But they describe a period of their life instead of giving me plot. You have to have scenes in order to have plot. Things have to happen. I have gotten entire memoirs, entire manuscripts, in which nothing happens because it's all, "I recall the summer, and the summer was—that year was especially warm. And each day we'd go swimming, and I recall my grandmother's cold lemonade." Now there's nothing wrong with that kind of writing, that can be beautiful, it can be nice in your book, it can get you through a period of time. There's nothing wrong with that. But when your entire book is that, and I never get a scene, and I'm never there with you, and nothing ever happens because it's that whole summer we did this, and then age 10 was like this, and third grade was horrible for me, and I didn't like anyone at school, and I didn't understand the math. And it just—does that make sense? It's just—I call it describing your life. When you do that for 300 pages, you'll lose your reader.

Jennia: Well, moving back to tips, how do you think—especially people who maybe are newer writers, or perhaps they just pick up this list of tips, and they automatically believe that this is the way to go. So how do you help them figure out which tips to follow and maybe which tips they should question a little bit?

Wendy Dale: You know, in my experience, the other tips that I find out there, I actually find them almost too vague to be helpful.

Jennia: Ahh yeah.

Wendy Dale: And so I don't see that there is many other tips causing people harm, I just feel like it's kind of like, "Oh, great, I have some guidelines," but I don't really know how to apply those tips is the problem I have, right? It's like your book needs to have universal resonance. I'm, like, well, okay (Jennia laughs). And then that's the end of the tip. And I'm like, "Okay, I like it. Now how do I do that?" Right? (laughs) So that's what I find, is that they're too vague. So most tips are not gonna harm writers. They're just not gonna be very helpful.

Jennia: Ahh.

Wendy Dale: Well, so I once looked for tips, too, because memoir structure is where people struggle. And so memoir—people struggle when it comes to memoir structure. And I once looked for information on structure and didn't find it. Now, when I say structure, I'm not talking three-act structure, hero's journey. Structure happens in every sentence of the book. And I didn't understand how memoirs were constructed. And eventually I wrote a memoir that got published, but it was a lot of trial and error. And when I became a memoir writing teacher, I started recognizing the mistakes that my students were making. And so little by little, I was like, how would you fix this?

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: And in fixing it, I realized there was a principle at play, right? And so every mistake they made, I'm like, well, if they didn't make the mistake, there's a principle here, right? So eventually, I did come up—I don't know if they're tips. I call them principles. They're principles that all memoirs follow because I hated the vague advice I got. So I really came up with this six-step process. If you do these things in the right order—and each step is big. Each step is kind of like, "Write a newsletter!" Then what I do is I explain how to write a newsletter. So there are multiple chapters on each step, so you—

Jennia: Right. I was going to say you have a whole book of advice, it's not a 500-word article (both laugh).

Wendy Dale: Yes, exactly. So that—and that really [is something] I'm really passionate about because I suffered from not understanding these principles. So it's a very nerdy book. Anytime you deconstruct something or you have the word “engineering" in the title, yeah, you're probably dealing with a geek, so.

Jennia: But I really do think that so much of writing does come down to that. And it doesn't really matter what genre you write in or what type of writing you do. Because we hear all the time, read often, read all the time in your genre. Because what are we really doing when we're doing that? We're deconstructing. We might not think we are, but that's what we're doing. We're seeing what works, we're seeing what doesn't work. And then we're taking that and applying it to our own story or our own memoir or our own article about what's new in business.

Wendy Dale: So I tried doing that. So when I went on my search for structure because my memoir wasn't working, I did try. So that was one of those steps I took, I'm like, "Okay, let's see what other memoirs are doing." The problem I had was that when books are working, they just work, right? It's like you don't see the seams. And I'm, like—well, first of all I get pulled into the story because they were good memoirs. And then I would look at them again after I'd already read the memoir, and I'm like, "Okay, what's happening here?" And I couldn't figure it out. And it wasn't until I became a memoir writing teacher and got imperfect manuscripts. It is so easy to see the seams little by little. Now, it took me 15 years, right? So it wasn't like, oh, one day . . . Oh, totally understand!

Jennia: Right, no, first day on the job. Got it figured out! (both laugh)

Wendy Dale: Yeah, got it! All right (laughs). But little by little, getting imperfect, it's like watching a bad movie. If you want to learn how to write movies, watch bad ones so you—knowing what not to do, right, is actually almost more helpful if you turn it around and you turn it into—if you see, oh, that's what not to do, so let me do the opposite, which turns into a principle of what I should do. You know, I can see what not to do, which is probably more helpful than seeing a perfectly constructed memoir. It's really hard to understand what they're doing.

Jennia: Now, I think that would still give you the feel for what your memoir should feel like, that it should be immersive, that you shouldn't see the seams, for instance. So if you do—

Wendy Dale: Yeah!

Jennia: —Right! Because we have this idea then of what it should look like. Because I also think that seeing really good examples of good writing demonstrates for us what our own polished, finished piece should look like. Versus if we didn't do that, and we did have, let's say, a visible seam, and we thought, "Meh, it's okay, I can just leave that there. I'm sure other memoirs have that too."

Wendy Dale: Oh, no, I so agree with you. I mean, I think there are people who want—who dream of fame and riches being a writer, and they don't read. That's (laughs)—You need to love books. You need to read. Yeah, so if you're going to be a writer, you need to be a reader.

Jennia: So speaking about the types of writers that probably rely more on tips, one thing that I read, someone had said that maybe it comes from a lack of confidence in your own writing or that you haven't established your voice yet. And so that's why they do continue to look these guidelines up over and over again, because they're trying to get that support, or they're trying to convince themselves that they're doing the right thing or they can't figure out which direction to go on their own.

Wendy Dale: I'm a researcher, right? I love information! So for me, what I find, and which has frustrated me, is that writing is considered very different than other art forms, such as dance or music. If you want to learn to play an instrument, you study, you learn how to play music, you're taught principles. And so this is what I'm kind of trying to change—

Jennia: Ahh yeah.

Wendy Dale: It's not that I—now tips not so much. But principles are kind of important. And so people call this craft when it comes to writing, but there really aren't that many principles, and that's really what I'm trying to change. So I am not against people—I love it when people are like, "Oh! You know, I want to understand how memoir works. I want to understand how a book works. I want to understand its components." I love that attitude. So looking things up, yeah, I find that I don't know that it's wrong to look up tips, but I think that what people are finding isn't the right information, so.

Jennia: That is an important distinction, yeah. And even who they come from, I think that should be something that they look into also. So you talked about loving research. So how would you advise someone to maybe research whoever it is who's giving them these tips or principles?

Wendy Dale: I think there's a really easy way. Do these principles apply to the books that you like?

Jennia: Ahhh.

Wendy Dale: So when I see the way that show don't tell is explained, one of the things I love doing on my YouTube channel is showing examples of award-winning authors that totally are going against the advice that you're seeing online. So take these tips, look at books that you love, and see if these award-winning author—or a book you like. It doesn't have to be an award-winning author. It can be a book you genuinely love from genre-fiction, I don't care. Right? If that tip is being applied by a writer you love, take that tip to heart. If not, I would be very cautious because a lot of times people are creating content online. You know, there's that pressure to create content if you want followers. And so they put a lot of stuff out there because they have to post every day.

Jennia: Ohh, right, yes good point. I could see that too. Even just looking at, are they ever supplying tips that are contradictory in that effort to make sure that they're getting enough content out on a weekly, monthly, whatever it is, basis?

Wendy Dale: Yeah. So be careful with the tips that you get. Absolutely.

Jennia: Yeah. It's just interesting that you said that because I can see some of it almost being a regurgitation of information they've pulled from other sources. It's not necessarily something they believe or they've ever even tried, they're just sharing it to get likes or engagement or the next sponsorship or whatever it is.

Wendy Dale: It is! It is shared content you see a lot of. And that's why it gets so dangerous. Because sometimes—it's usually not their own thinking they've read it somewhere else from someone who read it somewhere else and they're copying what is sometimes false information. So the way to know is look at books that you love and see if that tip holds up in real life.

Jennia: That's—I love that. I think that is fantastic advice. Because we're going to know better anyway by seeing how it's actually executed and how it actually comes across when you're reading it versus if someone just tells you do this or don't do this.

Wendy Dale: There are people who've been doing this for years who have degrees, who—I don't know that that is necessarily the way to know whether the advice is good or not. It really is whether—And there are other people, very young and very talented, who know what they're talking about, who may not be famous. So I don't use that as a way of judging whether I trust the advice I'm getting. How many degrees someone has. It really is, does this advice hold up?

Jennia: That's interesting you said that because I just read an article not that long ago that someone was talking about something like this, about asking like a six-figure author or a multi-millionaire author, well, how did you reach this level of success? And the author was saying that sometimes they just dont t know. It might have been luck, it might have been just in the timing of whatever that genre was that they're writing in and they hit it right at the right mark. But they might feel pressured to come up with an answer or they might feel like they somehow won't look as smart or as successful if they don't have an answer. So then they supply one. That doesn't mean it was actually what they did. It doesn't mean that the tips they're now sharing with you are actually what they followed or the reason that they are where they are. But then everyone sees it and, like, "Ah, well, that's how so and so got here. Because they did this, this, and this."

Wendy Dale: So interesting. Yeah, absolutely.

Jennia: Yeah.

Wendy Dale: Right. And writers do look for guidance. I do think it's the most difficult art form because it's both logical and creative. Right? You have to combine both of those things and writers need help. I mean, it's tough out there—I mean it's tough emotionally. Is this any good? Right? The art itself comes from inside of you, [but] you do need feedback from other people. So it starts as this internal art form, but when it goes out into the world, you do need feedback. You do need feedback. So I absolutely understand the need to reach out and look for information and try and learn how to write a book. Makes sense to me.

Jennia: Oh yeah, well said. Especially about needing feedback and having all those other people because those are kind of your resources too. And that goes back to what you said earlier about looking at books you enjoy. Looking at how they're written because you're now taking the place of that book by handing your own material to someone to be the reader and see what their experience is like. Because really that's what it comes down to is someone else understanding what you're trying to get across. There's that word "resonating" with them (laughs).Yeah—

Wendy Dale: Yeah, you like that word (laughs). You come across that word a lot, I think. That's a resonant.

Jennia: Oh yeah! (laughs)

Wendy Dale: So I have writers who say to me, this is a question I get, "Maybe I shouldn't read any other memoirs because I don't want to be influenced."

Jennia: Oh!

Wendy Dale: And I laugh and I say, "If your book sounds like Mary Karr, it's okay." (laughs) You know, it's not a bad thing. No. I mean, for what—I think we all need to read books. And if you are influenced to a certain extent by incredibly talented writers, great. That would be incredible if you sound like Mary Karr. Our goal is for you to sound like Mary Karr or any other memoir writer you like, you know. The—

Jennia: Or your version of Mary Karr, right. Mary Karr as influenced by you (laughs).

Wendy Dale: Of course, yes, we don't want a copy, but that's impossible to happen. It's just impossible for you to be a copied version of any other writer, even if you've read a lot of them.

Jennia: Well, do you have any other advice that we haven't covered already?

Wendy Dale: I would really say learn principles. I really would. That is something I really believe in, that there are principles that you can rely on, which are very different than formulas.

Jennia: Mhm.

Wendy Dale: So know the difference between someone who's trying to sell you a formula and someone who is teaching you the principles of how all books work. I I would also say do this in the right order. I see a lot of writers who don't even consider chronology at the outset, especially in memoir—

Jennia: Ah, yes.

Wendy Dale: I think that's probably less common in fiction. So they're jumping all over the place in time without understanding how to do that in the interest of telling a better story. So after knowing what your memoir is going to be about, that's your first step. Your second step is to think of how you will tell the story chronologically. I think so many people start by writing page one and then page two, and then page three, and then page four—

Jennia: Yes!

Wendy Dale: I tell people, especially with memoir, you have to take a bird's eye view. You need to sort of sketch this out globally. So thinking about how you're going to use chronology in your book—Is this backstory? Is this a flashback that's gonna come later in my book?—is a really important—You don't have to know every flashback in your book. Please don't do that (Jennia laughs). You'll drive yourself crazy, right? But chronology, "Where does your main storyline start? Where does it end?" is a really important question to ask yourself before you start writing. So sketch out—sketching out things in advance, I strongly recommend. That would be my long advice (both laugh).

Jennia: Well, that was wonderful advice! So thank you very much.

Jennia: And thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information, including all of Wendy's links, and the link to her YouTube channel. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could leave a rating or a review. And then please join me next week when Lola Reid Allin will visit to talk about pacing and your life story. Thanks again!