314. Busting the Social Media Myth with Annie Sklaver Orenstein

Researcher and author Annie Sklaver Orenstein talks about her publishing journey, the urban legend of social media followings, and why you can still get published without them.

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Visit Annie's website and get a copy of her book:
https://www.annieorenstein.com/

Follow her socials:
https://www.instagram.com/anniesklaverorenstein/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/anniesorenstein/ https://www.threads.net/@anniesklaverorenstein

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole-person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Authors may have heard or read that to land a publishing deal or to successfully self-publish that they need to have a large social media following and an established platform. But is that really true? Cultural researcher, writer, and storyteller Annie Sklaver Orenstein is here to tell you that there are other methods. And she'll be sharing how to sell your book without having that large following or platform.

Jennia: Thanks so much for being here today!

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you so much for having me! I'm excited to be here.

Jennia: Yeah, I'm excited to have you here! Could you tell us a little bit about you and maybe your most recent book?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes! So, as you mentioned, I'm a researcher by trade and I work during the day as a researcher in a large tech company. And I write, obviously, and I love to write. And I had this idea for a book, which is my book that came out in May. It's called Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourner's Guide to Grief. And it is kind of exactly what the title sounds like. But it's a book on grief and specifically around sibling grief. I lost my eldest brother in 2009. He was killed in Afghanistan.

Jennia: Aww, I'm sorry.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. And originally, the first idea I had for this book was very much about him and told, in part, through his own words because he left a lot of journals and diaries behind, but kind of a story of both of us. And I had this idea and of course everything you look at online is like, you need to have a huge social media following or a name. You have to be able to, you know, have a platform, prove that you can sell this book.

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And at the time I had a private Instagram account that was, like, photos of my kids (laughs). And basically that was it, you know, and I had a Facebook account and a Twitter account that no one followed. And I really started to wonder, like, how true this was.

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And it felt to me like—I was working full time, I had two young kids, and it was the pandemic. And you know, this was, like, 2020. So time was extremely limited. And it was like, "Okay, I can either write this book or try to build a platform and a following." It didn't really feel like I had the time or brain space to do both.

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And so I felt like rather than reject myself, you know, and say, "I have to go do this other thing," which is totally different than what I wanted to do, I kind of took the approach of like, "Well, I'm gonna make someone tell me that. I'm gonna make someone tell me that I have to go build some kind of platform."

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And so I really just pursued the book and ignored the platform. And I had, you know, put together a proposal and I was querying agents. And, you know, I sent out I-don't-know-how-many queries and didn't hear back from anyone ever. Well, not ever, but didn't hear back from anyone for a while. Then I had read that, you know, helpful—If you can get, like, essays published or articles published—

Jennia: Ohh.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —or something like that, then it's a good reason to follow up with an agent. Because you can say, "Oh, hey, by the way, I had this piece published." So I thought, okay, that's gonna be my focus. Again, let me focus on writing and, like, the thing I want to sell and not building a platform.

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So because, you know, my brother was killed in Afghanistan and was in the military, I wrote a piece about that and about him and pitched it, first, for Memorial Day. But but I pitched it, like, in early May, not realizing how far in advance you have to pitch for holidays like that (laughs).

Jennia: Yes (laughs).

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And so then I made a few changes and I pitched it for Veterans' Day, and I started pitching much earlier than November. And it ended up running in TIME, and so—

Jennia: Which is amazing! So congratulations (laughs).

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you! That—It was huge. And, you know, that was my moment to follow up. And I did, and I ended up hearing back from two agents and signing with one of them. And, you know, my question to her was like, "Okay, now do I need to build a platform? And she kind of took the same approach as me and was like, "Well, let's make someone tell us that you need a platform," you know? And she felt like in my case, right, we could position me as a researcher and do these things. And there were some changes that she wanted to make to the book and I was okay with. But we really felt like there are other things to lean on. There are things like professional expertise, there is personal knowledge, there—It's just the quality of writing, right? And in her mind, we could go out with that and we could tell publishers, "Hey, we'll work on building a platform while writing the book and help when it comes out, but let's just try to sell this book."

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And the first time we went out on submission, we got all rejections, as often happens, but very consistent feedback. And from some editors, you know, feedback that was like, "If you make these changes, come back. Feel free to pitch us again." So rewrote the proposal again, at that point, for the third time. And went out and the book ended up going to auction. And I had three editors, you know, three publishers—

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —bidding on it.

Jennia: Which is the dream, really (laughs).

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right! Exactly. And again, I—you know, at that point I had a private Instagram account.

Jennia: Yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And I had no following and I had no platform. But I had other stuff. And I did, you know, start to build that platform before the book comes out. And I'm, you know, trucking along at, like, a thousand followers (laughs). You know, maybe it'll grow, maybe it won't. But I think, ultimately, it was like the book filled a hole, it filled a need in the market. There was real white space. And I think the editors liked the quality of the writing. And, ultimately, the lack of a platform was something they could kind of look past and—

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —what I think I've realized since then is, you know, having a platform might help you sell a book. When you think about, like, celebrities who maybe aren't very good at writing, but, like, they can sell a book and then they get assigned a ghostwriter. And it's fine because they know they're gonna sell a lot. They have a lot of followers, right?

Jennia: Yeah, exactly.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So if you have a huge platform, it could certainly help you sell a book. But in my experience, not having a platform doesn't hurt you. It just isn't necessarily the thing that's going to sell the book. But it—I don't think that it ultimately was a ding against me. It just wasn't the reason why I was able to sell the book.

Jennia: Yeah. It could even differ depending on what you're writing into. So just as a personal example, if I'm scrolling Bookstagram and something catches my eye, I might then go add it to my TBR or my Amazon wish list. But I'm thinking about a book like yours where someone is already in that mindset of, "I need help dealing with this grief," they're not going to be scrolling through BookTok or Bookstagram, just mindlessly scrolling—

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right.

Jennia: —They're going to be looking that up in a search engine or going to that aisle in the bookstore. You're not going to be looking up that author platform ahead of time because you don't even know to do it. You're thinking about the content, not the author so much.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly, exactly. And I think—you know, when I went out and [I] had in my proposal, there's no modern resource for grieving siblings, and here's the statistics on how many grieving siblings there are. And I heard back from some publishers where they said, like, "We didn't believe you until we searched and realized, 'oh my God, there aren't any,' and this is a hole."

Jennia: Wow.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And, you know, part of me was like, "Are you kidding me? This is what you do for a job," you know? (laughs).

Jennia: I'll admit that I've actually—I do do that.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You do not! No!

Jennia: (laughs) Yes. I mean, that's surprising because yeah, even with a lot of the authors that I work with, that's something that we do or we ask them to do the research and present it, not just, "Oh, what a surprise" (laughs).

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right, right. So, you know, I think kind of making that case, they were like, "Yeah, there is an audience for that."

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know, I think I was able to prove that there was an audience for the book. And the fact that that whole audience didn't follow me on Instagram was okay.

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know, because they exist and there will, unfortunately, be more of that audience who exist every day. And I think it really helped build the case. And, again, it could be different with different genres, but I think it really felt like this is a missing resource and I can fill that gap. And so the fact that I didn't have thousands of followers was okay.

Jennia: So why do you think that this myth is so largely believed? Because we do see that come up a lot, even in author discussions where a lot of their focus is, "Oh, I have to get a social media account, I have to build this huge following." And they just act like it's this given. That it's a necessity almost.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know, I've been thinking about that a lot and, like, wondering where it comes from and wondering, is it partly a self-fulfilling prophecy where, like, someone gave that advice and then enough people have repeated it where it kind of becomes canon?

Jennia: Like an urban legend almost, yes (laughs).

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right, right. Okay, so I have three theories that are strictly theories, but one is that, that it's like urban legend. One is that it can help you. Right? Like, it's not gonna hurt to have a following. So maybe there's, like, that piece of it and that—you know, that kind of thing where it, like, starts off as, like, an optional nice-to-have can very quickly turn into this is a thing we all must do, right?

Jennia: Yes! (laughs)

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And so, like, there's that. And then I also kind of wonder, like, I don't know, are there editors who are using that as an excuse when really the book just wasn't right for them?

Jennia: Hmm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know? And I don't know, again, I got a lot of rejections and it seemed like the rejections I got were thoughtful in terms of, like, "Here's why the content doesn't work," or whatever. But I do wonder if it's a little bit of a lazy excuse where the publisher doesn't want to put in all the work, or they want to know that it's more of a guaranteed thing. It's easier for them if you have a bigger marketing platform. So I don't know how much of it, like, comes from that being an easy excuse to give an author, but it feels like kind of a lazy one to me. Because I think if it's a good book, then the audience can be found.

Jennia: Right. Well, plus, you want to think that your publisher is going to back it and that they're going to help promote it for you, not rely on you and the audience that you bring to them versus the other way around.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. That's why it feels kind of lazy to me. Um,

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: But it does feel like just one more thing that they put on the author—

Jennia: Right.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —to do that really, like, traditionally was the role of the publisher. But maybe it's a cost reduction thing. But it makes their life easier, and I think there are some publishers or some editors who are looking for that. You know, if their budgets are really limited, maybe it's easier to find a book that they don't have to put as many marketing dollars behind.

Jennia: Yeah. And then some small presses don't have a separate marketing team at all. So then there's that too.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right.

Jennia: Well, can you share what you think authors lose or maybe miss out on when they're focused only on the number of followers they have?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well, I mean, they're not spending that time writing, you know? And I think there's also a trap of, like, quantity over quality. Right? Like, I could try to just build the biggest social media following I can. But, in my case, if the book isn't relevant to them, I don't know why that would be helpful. And there's word of mouth, sure. And all publicity is good publicity. But, like, you know, for me, it felt like—and I appreciate that I know your podcast kind of takes this angle of, like, writing as part of your full life and kind of this, like, the balance and taking care of yourself and all of that. And for me, I just felt like I couldn't do both.

Jennia: Ahh yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Building a following on social media requires not only a tremendous amount of time, but it does require creative energy because you have to create content. You know, you have to build something and create something from scratch that reflects you and that has your—you know, your words and your—all of this. And I kind of felt like if I was channeling all this creative energy and time into that, then when was I gonna actually sit down and write? You know, some days it's easier to create content then to write, and other days I would be sitting there, like, zero content ideas, just wanting to write.

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And so it felt like a chore and I didn't want it to feel like a chore. And I think that, ultimately, we only have a certain number of hours in the day. You know, a lot of us are writing in addition to a full time job.

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: In addition to other life responsibilities. And your time is precious. And so I think, you know, my advice would be, like, don't spend so much time trying to build your following that you don't get to write your book or that you don't have that good creative energy left for it.

Jennia: Yes, exactly! That's very similar to what Steven James said when he was on the show because he has a character he's written about who, admittedly, is not a great author in this book (both laugh). But the, character's focus is on building his social media presence, and debating which platform he should use, and . . . I think he said then, like, "Hey, focus on the writing, get the book done, then maybe worry about it, not the other way around!"

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think about it like—okay, I don't know if anyone else listening has, like, a day job where you have to build out PowerPoint presentations or, like, slides and stuff. But I always get in the trap when I'm writing my research reports where, like, I can spend so long designing my slides and making my deck look beautiful.

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It's just because I want to avoid writing (Jennia laughs) the actual research. Right? It's fully a procrastination tactic. It's my ADHD full force. Let me make sure my color palette and design is perfect. And then suddenly you're like, "Oh s***," I didn't actually write the report." And it's a distraction. It's a very pretty distraction. And I think that sometimes creating content and this focus on building a platform is that. It's like a shiny, exciting thing. You get a lot more dopamine hits because every time you get a new follower, you're like, "This is exciting!" Whereas when you're writing, you're, like, alone in a hole (both laugh). And, you know—I mean, I literally write, like, with my hood on—

Jennia: Yep! (laughs)

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —and I'm so focused in and you're just, like, just sucking from you. And that's very different than the kind of immediate reward and path you got from social media. And so it's really easy to focus on social media instead because it feels better. You get more of a payoff, you get more immediate payoff.

Jennia: Well, besides not writing, do you think there are any other negatives that come with focusing on social media metrics?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Oh yes. I think that it's very easy to tie your worth and your value and your skill to your number of followers.

Jennia: Mmm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know, if I post an excerpt from the book that only gets five likes, then, like, am I a bad writer? Am I a bad author? Like, I think there's a lot of negative and downside to it. Like, what if the people on BookTok aren't talking about my book? Like, you know, I think there's a lot there. And yet the reactions that you're getting and the number is, like . . . you have no idea who these people are. Right?

Jennia: Right, yes.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And I think you end up tying a lot of—at least for me, I end up tying a lot of my own, like, self-worth or self-esteem to these numbers that are anonymous people. I think they're people and not bots. But, like (laughs), you know, it just—you miss, I think, the essence of it. And for me I get very trapped in, like, self-doubt. I try not to look at those numbers now—or at least not immediately. But, like, I would post and then, you know, look 10 minutes later, look 20 minutes later.

Jennia: Yes (laughs)

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Is anyone looking at it? And, like, I need to stop, but it's really hard. And I think—you know, we were talking earlier about how it, like, it can kind of suck some of that creativity and, like, it can take some of that confidence.

Jennia: Yeah!

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And if you start kind of focusing on what performs well on social media, it may or may not translate to what's going to perform well in your book and in your story.

Jennia: Ohh. Good point, yes.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: You know, like, so I'm so focused on that quick hit of, like, what delivers on Instagram, but then that might not work in a book. You know, it probably won't. And so now I've, like, really honed this skill that isn't actually gonna help me write a book.

Jennia: Mhm! Just you saying that made me start thinking about my best performing posts and thinking, "Could you even make a story from those?" (laughs)

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right!

Jennia: I think one was, like, a giant pile of boxes before a book convention and then the next one after that was a picture of my dog on his birthday (Annie laughs). So yeah, we're not exactly looking at great (laughs) starts for literature here, but yeah.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And it's—I think it's like, ultimately, it's a helpful tool for selling books, and it's a helpful tool for building communities. You know, I think, like, really beautiful communities can be built online. But I think when you start to feel like, "I need to do this in order to sell a book, I need to do this in order to do something," then it becomes that chore and it becomes negative and it becomes pressure.

Jennia: It could also be very limiting.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah!

Jennia: Because I'm thinking, like, even how you were talking about the essays and getting published in TIME, of all things. What if you are foregoing these other opportunities because you are putting all your focus there? I mean, I'd rather be able to say I had a piece in TIME, then I have 15,000 followers.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right! And, like, I didn't really get many followers from that article. Like, you know, it wasn't like I suddenly, like, got thousands of followers. It didn't. I got, like, a few trickled in, but that wasn't the point. Actually, no. When the first—I've published two in TIME. One was around when the book launched. And the first time I published in TIME, I didn't have a public Instagram at all. But the second time, you know, just a few trickled in. But, like, that wasn't the point of it. Right? The point wasn't—I didn't do it to get followers. I did it to publish a piece in TIME and to get the attention of agents and to, like, do all of these other things. You have to know why you're doing it. Right?

Jennia: Yes!

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And, like, if you're on social media because you want to build a community, that's great. That's, like, an incredible thing, right? And you can get a lot of fulfillment from that. But if you're just doing it because you think you have to, then I don't think that's the right reason.

Jennia: Yeah, very well said. Thank you for that.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah.

Jennia: So besides talking about publishing essays and that sort of thing, what other methods have you seen work or have you heard from other authors that work besides the whole social media thing?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think, yeah, getting your work out there . . . however you do it. You know, publish it yourself on Medium or have a SubS—like, just getting your work out there. And I say that because in my experience—So when I followed up with agents after my essay came out, the agent I ended up signing with had come back to me and said, "I loved your writing in the TIME piece. It's different than the style of your writing in the proposal. Would you be willing to shift the proposal and make it more personal like the TIME essay was?"

Jennia: Mmm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Now, if she had never read the TIME essay, she wouldn't have known that I could do that. Right?

Jennia: That's true!

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: The original proposal was a bit more like—I wasn't in it. It was much more about my brother. And the TIME essay was very personal. And she said, "I want that. You know, I want the book version of that!" And if my writing wasn't out there, she would never have known. And so I don't even think it's necessarily that it has to be in TIME or it has to be in some big place. You just have to have examples of your work for agents and editors to look at, because they might say, "Hey, can we do these few things and change this thing up? And I know you can do it because I've seen your work." And so I think that's, like—my biggest piece of advice is just get the work out there somewhere so that you can point people to it. And, like, you hear stories of, like, "If you get published in Modern Love, then, like, agents come knocking on your door." And, like, that's great. I've never been accepted to Modern Love, but (both laugh). But, like, I think just having your work out there is really important. And I do think that that's one where social media can't necessarily do the same thing—

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: —because you're writing such small snippets. So maybe it can, I don't know. But for me, at least, you know, having something slightly longer was really helpful. So I would say do that. You know, put your work out there so that if there is someone interested in you, they can see the breadth of what you can do, and they can see your style, and they can really get a sense of it. And then, yeah, I think that's kind of the biggest one. But it goes back to that, like, if you want to be a writer, then write.

Jennia: Mhm.

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And share that, you know? Share your writing, share the thing that you ultimately want to do, and let that be your focus.

Jennia: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for that. And do you have any upcoming events or books, maybe, other pieces that you'd like to tell people about before we end?

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well, I am working on some things, but nothing new yet. But if you are a bereaved sibling or you know one, or you are supporting one, consider picking up Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourner's Guide to Grief.

Jennia: All right, well, thank you again. It's been so great having you!

Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. It's been great!

Jennia: Thank you for listening. And be sure to check out the show notes for additional information. And please join me next week when Paula Whyman will be here to tell us all about the importance of taking that first small step to help you get started. Thanks again!