328. Writing About True Crime with Janice Cantore

Author and former police officer Janice Cantore discusses writing about cold cases, what media often gets wrong, and about the recent rise of the true crime genre.

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See Janice's website:
https://www.janicecantore.com/

Learn more on Tydale's website and find copies of her books:
https://mediacenter.tyndale.com/authors/janice-cantore/1381
https://www.tyndale.com/p/every-deadly-suspicion/9781496487933

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*GIVEAWAY INFORMATION*

1. You must have a U.S. address.
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4. If you have an Instagram account, please make a post about receiving the book and tag Tyndale in the post!

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https://www.instagram.com/jenniaahava/?hl=en

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennia-herold-d-lima-73165952
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Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole-person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Cold cases can leave people wondering just who to trust, who is hiding a long-buried secret, and even questioning their own safety. And when a suspected killer is about to be set free, that sense of urgency can rapidly increase. Joining us to talk about how to write cold cases into your fiction is author and retired Long Beach police officer, Janice Cantore. And make sure you listen all the way to the end because we're going to be giving away a copy of Janice's newest book, Every Deadly Suspicion.

Jennia: Well, I'm so happy to have you here today!

Janice Cantore: Thank you very much! It's good to be with you.

Jennia: Yeah! So have you always been interested in cold cases or is that something that came about with your former career?

Janice Cantore: No, I've always been interested in them.  Whenever—There used to be a series on TV called Cold Case Files—

Jennia: Ohh yeah. 

Janice Cantore: —To me that was the best one. I mean there's a lot of them out there, but that was the best one with Bill Kurtis and I've always loved those. I find them fascinating because I just find the whole idea of, is there something they could have done at the very beginning that would have nipped this in the bud? Sometimes there is. Sometimes, you know, they make mistakes, or sometimes somebody is just really good at lying so, you know, something doesn't get uncovered. But yeah, they've always fascinated me.

Jennia: Yeah. Well, have any real-life cold cases ever inspired the plots in any of your books?

Janice Cantore: Oh gosh, yeah, lots. There was a case in San Luis Obispo.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: San Luis Obispo is a college town, to preface it. And so she disappeared after some kind of (dogs start barking and Janice laughs) some kind of get together on the college campus. Eventually they did catch the killer. I'm thinking it was maybe 20 years later. And so by this time I was working in law enforcement. And it was somebody that she had met on campus and he killed her and hid her body, and his parents covered for him.

Jennia: Oh my gosh.

Janice Cantore: Which was—just blew my mind. Yeah, anyway. Anyway, so he was eventually brought to justice—so was his father, who helped him get away—and that formed the beginning of my books—gosh . . . Yeah, that's Cold Case Justice! There we go!

Jennia: Oh, how fitting!

Janice Cantore: It was a series! It was three books. Anyway, that formed the beginning—I didn't follow the timeline exactly, but that whole case just made me go, "What if?"

Jennia: That seems like a good way to start. And I wonder, too, is there anything that you learned about how cold case files are solved once you were a police officer that maybe you hadn't realized before then?

Janice Cantore: It's lot of luck. And also, too, a lot of the cases that went cold when I was, like, in the 70s and 80s—

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: —a lot of those were solved because the technology improved. So some of it's luck and some of it is technology. When it's technology it just drives the point home—I don't write police procedurals, per se, but it's so important that they work the scene correctly and they preserve the evidence correctly. Because the cases that could be solved and aren't because when they go to the evidence it was never cataloged or stored correctly, I mean, that's heartbreaking—

Jennia: Yeah.

Janice Cantore: —You know, you have that sample but because you didn't put it in the refrigerator—because you didn't do this, you know what I mean? Or because the chain of evidence was contaminated. That's something people don't even think about sometimes. But the chain of evidence is so important. So yeah.

Jennia: Can you give an example where the chain of evidence was contaminated just so listeners have a better idea what that might entail?

Janice Cantore: Right. Well, like, say for example, you're collecting clothing that might have DNA—

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: —and you don't bag it correctly, somebody else touches it without gloves, and then you bag it. But then—what you don't want a defense attorney to do when you have a good case is to be able to inject doubt. So if they say, "Well, so and so touched this, but you didn't log it in that this person touched it, how do we know that they didn't tamper with it? How do we know that they didn't add something to it that shouldn't be there?" So that's the thing. You need to make sure that whoever logs it and touches it, that's the only person that does it. And it goes from the scene to evidence.

Jennia: Okay.

Janice Cantore: And then when evidence is examined in a police department, it's always logged in, logged out, detective signed for it. So you know who handled the stuff. That's the main thing. Because the defense attorney is always going to say, "Well, they planted this or they planted that."

Jennia: Right, yes. It's just kind of mind boggling to think it can come down to something that seems relatively minor.

Janice Cantore: Mhm.

Jennia: That one small thing could be what throws out the entire case or you lose your chance of finding out who did it—or not even finding out who did it, but being able to bring that person to justice. Even if you did have a pretty good idea that it was them. Wow.

Janice Cantore: Uh-huh. Right, right.

Jennia: Yes. Well, from a writing standpoint, how can you make a cold case feel relevant to the present moment and those characters living in it?

Janice Cantore: I think it's important to make the people that are left behind relevant because they have the memories of the person. Like the moms who say that their life is never the same—And of course it never will be the same after you lose a kid, if that's the issue. Like, the woman who was missing in San Luis Obispo from that case. In California, I mean, there were on the news pleas from her parents over the years. I mean, and that just breaks your heart.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: To just not know. I mean, obviously you think the person's dead, but you just don't know. And so I try to bring that into it. With Every Deadly Suspicion, it's a little bit different because part of the case they believe is solved.

Jennia: Mmm.

Janice Cantore: And part of it is cold, but they believe that they might be connected, but they don't know. So there's a double "I don't know" layer in that. But like with the gal in San Luis Obispo, it was like they had an idea that this kid was involved who was eventually arrested, but they had no proof.

Jennia: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. If there's someone in that present moment who still has a connection to the missing person or the victim, that's not really a drive to solve it that's ever going to go away. And you can see even when the police give up, or other people tell them it's time to let this go, that that just never really happens. And I know we see this a lot with—I'm thinking especially of certain missing children. Doesn't even matter how many years have gone by, you still—yeah, like you were saying, you still see them on the news, you still see them putting out, "Please, if you have new information." They're still calling whoever that chief of police is even when it's a new person, and saying, "Have you thought about reinvestigating the case?" Or they're looking up technology and things before it might even be used by their local police force because they're just so desperate to have that answer.

Janice Cantore: Right, right, right. They are.

Jennia: Well, so what details do you see other authors perhaps get wrong about police involvement in cold cases?

Janice Cantore: Well, a lot of times, there's too much TV involved. Because TV is not real police work. I mean, some shows are better fictionalizations than others, but—

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: —because real police work is too boring for a half-hour or an hour show (Jennia laughs). But there's things that you can't—let's see. Like, for example, sometimes in books they'll get test results back, like, within the hour, and that doesn't—

Jennia: Ohh.

Janice Cantore: —happen. Or they just go from exciting incident to exciting incident to exciting incident, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that just doesn't happen. Unfortunately, there's a lot of quiet downtime. Or putting conflict where there shouldn't be conflict.

Jennia: Well, do you have an example of a show that does do this well for listeners to reference or maybe get some better ideas that are perhaps more practical with a real-life application?

Janice Cantore: The original Law and Order was more true to life than most police stories. I mean, but when they got to the spin-offs, it's like the woman police detective who wear stiletto heels and low-cut blouses. I mean, no, it doesn't happen (both laugh). Anyway, so the spin-offs just went a little crazy. But the original Law and Order used to be good. I used to like to watch Castle, which sounds funny because they're not true to life at all. But they made the not true to life fun.

Jennia: Ahh.

Janice Cantore: So, I don't know if that makes sense to you, but seriously, it was just fun to watch, even though, no, this is not how it would go. But that kind of thing. Like, for example, if you get into a fist fight with a prisoner before you cuff him, you can't just cuff him, put him in jail, King's X. No, you're gonna be there for hours filing paperwork. You're probably gonna have to talk to internal affairs, you know, that kind of stuff.

Jennia: Yes.

Janice Cantore: But, so they had a lot of fun stuff like that. It was fun, but you knew it wasn't realistic. They weren't trying to be realistic. That was my opinion.

Jennia: Yeah, and I think that's the difference, too, especially when even the reader or the viewer realizes this. That there is that bit of imagination thrown in. It's not meant to be realistic because I think when you skew the two and mix them up, that's where you might have not necessarily a problem, but someone might even go so far as to decide they want to pursue that career path only to find out that that's not what it's like at all, or (laughs).

Janice Cantore: Yeah, yeah.

Jennia: Or then they write their own sort of stories that are based off these ideas which are not, in fact, true to life.

Janice Cantore: (laughs) Yeah.

Jennia: Then you get that angry reviewer coming in (laughs).

Janice Cantore: Yes, yes.

Jennia: Well, what are some of the differences between investigating a recent crime and one that was committed years ago?

Janice Cantore: Well, time would be the biggest factor in a recent crime, because you want to talk to everybody while everything's fresh. And you want to review the scene while everything's fresh. And if you're looking at an old case, you don't have that luxury, because everything's probably gone. If it was in a house, the house probably changed hands a number of times, if it even still stands. And all of the evidence, like—for DNA, for example, I don't know if you've ever seen it, where a case has been cold for a long time and maybe there was evidence that was on a sheet.

Jennia: Ohh.

Janice Cantore: So what they do is they clip the evidence out of the sheet. So then 15 years later, you're looking at the sheet because they've tested and retested and there's all these little holes because they've pretty much almost gotten all the evidence off that sheet. So when the crime is fresh, that's what—you have everything fresh.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: But afterwards, you're kind of picking over what's left. And you're hoping that somebody left something that's going to be useful, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does, but that's why I say a lot of it's luck.

Jennia: Yeah. No, I can see that. Even thinking about some of the shows I've watched where they are based on real cold case files, where they might not have the witnesses around anymore—

Janice Cantore: Mhm.

Jennia: —or the witness now has dementia or something similar, so that their memories are no longer reliable. Or they can no longer find that person, even though there's no record of them having died. That sort of thing.

Janice Cantore: Yes. That's hard too. People's memories, too . . . With time, they can conflate things.

Jennia: Mhm

Janice Cantore: You know, so that's always an issue.

Jennia: That's true too. Because I know research has shown that every time we bring back up a memory, it changes a little bit. And so I've read that even the emotions you're feeling at that time that you apply to that memory now infiltrate that memory. So even though you might not have felt that way at the time the memory was formed, now you believe that's how you felt because that's the most recent emotion that was brought up when that memory was reignited.

Janice Cantore: Right, right, right. Yeah.

Jennia: So moving back into the writing part (both laugh), how did you incorporate the necessary pieces of backstory while keeping it engaging?

Janice Cantore: That was difficult. In Every Deadly Suspicion, I had quite a lot of backstory because my mind was on the original crime. Because I set the original crime back in 1977 or thereabouts. And back when there was a real issue with meth and meth labs in California. I don't—But we had an issue with abandoned houses being taken over and made into meth labs. And just, I mean, it was a big deal. So anyway, so that was why I set the crime back there because I was familiar with what was going on. So some of it had to be cut because it was just too much to keep the reader engaged.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: But then just like a cold case detective would do, you have to go to the memories of the people who were alive then and are still alive now. And so that's kind of how I worked it in, is the story that they had to tell. Like, for example, how it affected this family that that kid was killed then and how this family is still affected because that happened. So that kind of brings everything present. And that's what I tried to do anyway.

Jennia: Oh yeah, no, that's a great technique because it avoids all those big blocks of exposition and it makes it feel like the story is fresh and new because whoever's interviewing them, that's the first time they'll have heard it. So it is fresh and new for them, even though it's old information.

Janice Cantore: Right, right.

Jennia: Well, switching gears slightly, but still based off content in this book, what are your thoughts about the rising popularity of true crime podcasts?

Janice Cantore: You know, I really haven't given it much thought. I don't listen to any true crime podcasts.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: But I understand. I understand the fascination. Like, for example, I'm fascinated with true crime. So I guess (laughs) I can understand it. I just tend to be more of a reader than a listener. So I read a lot about it. But I think it's interesting. Crime is interesting. So if people know what they're talking about, then the podcast is good. But if people are making stuff up . . . I mean, my thoughts immediately go to Nancy Grace and, but—

Jennia: Yeah! So that's a good point to bring up too. And I wonder if you've ever included a character like this. Because I know I've seen some in other books where the person is doing it more for getting that attention or putting themselves on their own soapbox. And the issue they might be talking about isn't really related to the cold case file, but they're using it as a way to draw attention to it by making their speculation sound like fact. And I think we've seen this in some of the documentaries that have come up, too, where people then found out later that what they're saying happened isn't what really happened.

Janice Cantore: Right.

Jennia: Do you think some of this renewed media attention comes from people being ignorant of the whole process and everything that goes into putting someone in prison that first time and everything they had to come through as far as evidence and everything else?

Janice Cantore: I think that, and sometimes in the media there's such an anti-police, anti-prosecutor bias where they think everyone's corrupt and people are being persecuted for no reason at all. I think there's a lot of that going on, especially in the minds of younger people.

Jennia: Mmm.

Janice Cantore: And, I don't know, that wasn't my experience. It wasn't my experience. People wanted guilty people to go to jail, but they didn't want the chance that a jury was going to say, "Well, this doesn't make sense that this person did it, so we're gonna let him go." I mean, they wanted to be certain that they had all their ducks in a row. And it was not a haphazard process. And it was generally not—Sure, from time to time, there's the corrupt person that—I mean, somebody could find lots of examples of corrupt cops or corrupt lab people, but that was not the rule. That was like a small, small percentage. And sometimes people take that small percentage and blow it up.

Jennia: No, yeah, I can see that. And I do wonder sometimes too. But if you ever see the opposite being true, let's say someone who isn't related to the victim or the missing person, but they bring up this renewed interest and it leads to that case getting solved?

Janice Cantore: Yeah, that can happen too. Yeah, I have seen that. I have. People get interested in something that they see online or something that they watch, and they—Yeah, I have seen that happen. Which is a good thing. It all depends on—I think it depends on the motivation behind—

Jennia: Uh-huh.

Janice Cantore: —piping the interest. I mean, what is the motivation? Is your motivation to get clicks or is your motivation to help the victim?

Jennia: Yes! That is an incredibly important distinction. Yes, exactly. That's what I was kind of thinking of when I brought up the earlier question, but I didn't articulate it that well. But yes, exactly that. Are you doing it because you want to increase the amount of followers you have and get a sponsorship and you want to go viral? Right. Or are you really that passionate about finding out who did it? But not just passionate about that, but passionate about finding out the right way to do it and how to look at these clues and how to look at the evidence that was taken in and what evidence there's still remaining to sort through?

Janice Cantore: Right, right, right. And it was amazes to me what makes something go viral.

Jennia: Yeah (laughs).

Janice Cantore: When you see things go viral and you think, "Why?" And so I think there's a lot of people on social media that are trying to find out what that—And it's not always a good motive.

Jennia: Speaking about something else that relies on luck. That's it (laughs)

Janice Cantore: Yeah (laughs). Yeah, yeah. That's funny.

Jennia: Well, when you're writing, do you ever need to take a moment for yourself after writing about some of the heavier material?

Janice Cantore: It depends on where I'm at in the process.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: I am not an outliner. I am a just write-by-the-seat-of-my-pants. So sometimes it takes me a while to realize where the impact is.

Jennia: Ahh.

Janice Cantore: And, I mean . . . sometimes I can only describe my writing process as scattered (both laugh). And so, yeah, it can. There was a scene in Every Deadly Suspicion where her father dies.

Jennia: Oh.

Janice Cantore: And I just remember, yeah, I kind of did have to stop and think because that's huge. That's huge.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: And you don't—even if it's not somebody you've been in contact with your whole life, that's huge. And so yeah, sometimes, but usually I am just grinding out the story trying to get all the pieces to fit. So that's more what (both laugh) messes me up, is getting all the pieces—I suppose it would be easier if I can outline (Jennia laughs). But, honestly, I just—I don't have—

Jennia: You know what, it's working for you, so don't even—(both laugh)

Janice Cantore: Yeah.

Jennia: Well, before we end, you have any last parting advice for authors without your kind of background who are eager to include a cold case in their own work and include an investigation that is realistic?

Janice Cantore: Well, you know, sometimes it might help if they could go to their local police department and talk to the investigators there. Police departments are usually very open to that. But, like, when people talk to me about writing about police, I always say try to go on a ride along. I think some departments still do that. They'll take people on ride alongs. But anyway, I think finding an investigator that will just talk to them for a few minutes. Maybe just buy them a cup of coffee or just talk to them on the phone. There's a lot of people that are open to that.

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: I mean, there might be some who aren't, but I'm sure there's a lot that are. And they'll tell you what they can. And if they're trying to get a case solved, there might be a lot of information they'd want out there anyway. So—

Jennia: I didn't even think about that, yeah.

Janice Cantore: —Yeah. I mean there might be some that they have to keep private, sure. But, like we were saying before, it's just getting the people that are still alive and were still impacted by that—

Jennia: Mhm.

Janice Cantore: —and the information out there, it will help.

Jennia: Yeah, that's excellent advice! Well, thank you again so much!

Janice Cantore: Thank you! I'm glad we finally made it after that big crash (both laugh at earlier technical difficulties).

Jennia: Yes! (laughs)

Jennia: And thank you to everyone for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information, including the written details on the giveaway, which I'm going to give you right now! So how do you enter? It's simple. You contact me however is easiest for you—and I'll have all my links included so you don't have to go digging for them. You need to have a U.S. address. Then let me know if you'd like a hard or a soft cover. And if you have an Instagram account, it would be great if you could make a post once you receive the book and tag Tyndale. And a huge thanks to Janice and Tyndale for making this possible. Thanks again!