331. Different Forms of Art: A Conversation with Michael DiMartino

Animator and author Michael DiMartino discusses his beginnings as a creator and the nuances of working within different art mediums in a special episode of Writing and Editing.

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Check out Michael's website:
https://www.michaeldantedimartino.com/

Grab a copy of Both Here and Gone:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CW1JRPY7

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole-person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. It is my honor to have iconic animator Michael DiMartino here with us. He is the co-creator of Avatar: The Last Airbender and he's the author of multiple books—and he hosts a podcast—and those books include his latest, Both Here and Gone. And he'll be giving us his take on the creative process.

Jennia: Well first, it is such a pleasure to have you on the show today! Thank you for being here!

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, thanks for having me! Great to meet you.

Jennia: You too! So you've immersed yourself in a variety of creative mediums, including animation, audio, and novels. So I'd be interested in hearing what your creative journey has looked like from start to finish, or start to wherever you are now, whatever that start might be.

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, sure. Yeah, I grew up in Vermont and I was always interested in art as a kid. So I was always drawing, usually drawing, like, cartoons or copying Garfield or Bloom County, those kind of things. so that's kind of how I got into it. And then, yeah, as I got into high school, I was more into fine arts, knew I wanted to go to art school to study either painting or illustration. And then that path sort of led me to Rhode Island School of Design where I went to do film and animation. So that's really where I focused on learning how to make films, how to animate, how to do sound for film, all the kind of things you need to do to make a film come to life.

Jennia: Yeah! And did you always go in with the intention of using that visual medium as a storytelling method? Or was it something that evolved over time after those first years of doodling and drawing?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, the writing part has always been, I think, happening in tandem with the visual side. You know, I was reading a lot growing up, writing. So I think those two interests were always there. Yeah, I think the filmmaking aspect, I think I was drawn to because it had a more narrative-writing component to it than just the visual arts. And then, yeah, as I started my career in animation, I moved to LA—

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: —was working as a storyboard artist on King of the Hill, which was, like, just starting back in the 90s.

Jennia: I remember (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of how I got into the professional industry—was, like, through storyboarding. Then I was directing on shows like Family Guy. Yeah, and then my friend Bryan, who I'd gone to school with, had moved out to Los Angeles and we were working together on these shows, but also wanted to create our own show. So we kind of put our heads together and we had a bunch of ideas. But the big one that came out of that was Avatar: The Last Airbender and it's about to—well, it is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year of being out on TV. So . . .

Jennia: It still feels so new (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: We've been in that world for a while (laughs).

Jennia: Yeah. So this is something you just talked about here, and you also mentioned it on another interview, is that you almost always combine at least two different mediums in every project. So it's not just writing or just animation. So can you explain why this combination might remove limitations that would otherwise be present in the creative process?

Michael DiMartino: That's a good question. I mean, I think anytime you're creating even for visual arts—

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: —you're inevitably drawing on something else outside of yourself. Whether that's—I mean, it could be your life experience, but it could be a philosophy or ideas you've read—

Jennia: Ahh, yeah.

Michael DiMartino: —and that kind of stuff. So yeah, I mean for specifically in the case of Avatar, that was combining a lot of—There were two of us and we each had some overlapping interests, but we had differing interests as well. So, like, there's a lot of Eastern philosophy that was infused in the show.

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: Bryan was really into kung fu movies. We both loved Miyazaki movies. So we—you know, it was really drawing on a lot of mutual interests and trying to somehow infuse that into a new creation. And then, yeah, with, like, my writing, it's always like trying to figure out, like, I guess what genre I'm kind of exploring with that particular project. So I did a audio drama for Audible and I love mystery stories, so that was like—And I've done a little bit of that in the past, but that was my chance to do, like—I wanted to do a mystery and it had a SciFi element because there's a time travel—

Jennia: Ooo, yes!

Michael DiMartino: —component to it. So it's like a time travel, cold case, murder mystery sort of idea with teens. You know, I always have one definite commonality through all my stuff is it's usually—so far, at least—it's been younger audiences. Or I should say the characters are younger. The audiences aren't necessarily always younger. I mean it's intended for younger audiences, but especially with Avatar, it's branched out to all ages, so. But it's usually, yeah, like younger kids going on an adventure. There's usually a friendship aspect to a team of kids teaming up to, you know, solve the problem or go up against a big enemy, that sort of thing.

Jennia: Yeah. What is it that draws you to maybe not writing or creating for just that audience, but having those same types of characters, or, at least, characters in that same age range?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, that's just, I think, partly just my natural inclination? I don't know, it makes sense to me. I had good groups of friends growing up—think that might be part of it. Like, we didn't go and fight big enemies, but we were kind of, like, a tight knit group that would probably go on an adventure if called to. Like, with all creative things, it's always a mix of, like, the environment you grew up in, the circumstances you had, and then just however your brain is wired, certain things just make sense as opposed to other things. Like, I would not probably write a romance novel. You know? (Jennia laughs) It's not in my DNA. I could try, but I don't know that it would be very good.

Jennia: And it's probably just as well to recognize that instead of—(laughs)

Michael DiMartino: (laughs) Yeah.

Jennia: —attempting to force that effort and then just cringe when you're done.

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, totally.

Jennia: Well, has one of your projects ever started out being created in one medium and then you reached a point where you realized it was better suited for another?

Michael DiMartino: That is a good question. Actually, the Audible project was kind of a unique thing because it was a story idea I had that was like, "Oh, maybe this could be a YA novel or a comic or something like that." You know, it was still pretty early and so I was kind of trying to figure out what it could be. And then through context I had got this opportunity at Audible. They were like, "Would you like to do a[n] audio drama?" And it was a medium I was listening to and really enjoying. And I was like, "Well, I have this story," and I kind of, like, rough pitched this idea over the phone and he was like, "I love it! Let's make that" (Jennia laughs). I was like, "Oh, okay!" So that one kind of morphed into the audio idea. But it was a good fit because I was listening to, like, old Agatha Christie radio dramas and that kind of thing. So there's an element of that sort of thing where it's the audio drama. Like, you only have the characters and the dialogue and maybe some sound effects and a little bit of music, but it's super dialogue heavy. Whereas in animation it's so visual, and the action is so important, and the artwork is vital to the storytelling.

Jennia: And this mostly answers my next question, which is, how do you play with storytelling across all these different ways of sharing that story? So audio versus visual versus just on the written page?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, you just have to kind of think of what the strengths of this particular medium are. So yeah, I wrote some graphic novels based in The Legend of Korra, which was the sequel series to Avatar after the series had ended. You know, we have a pretty good publishing part of Avatar. Like, the stories have continued on in comics—

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: —and novels and stuff. So I wrote a couple of choreographic novels and I do remember sitting down and going—like, there were a lot of similarities where it's the same characters, it's—you're writing a script more or less. There's visuals obviously, but you don't have motion, you don't have the actual voices of the characters. You just have word balloons and you can't rely on sound effects or music to help carry the emotion. So that was, a big learning experience to figure out how to kind of convey this world that I was used to doing in animation, just in a comic format.

Jennia: Mhm. And is that something where you almost have to go into a different mindset or is that transition from one to the other fairly seamless when it comes to, "I'm going to work on this and I'm going to work on this"?

Michael DiMartino: Uh, it's been, I guess, somewhat seamless for me because I just—Yeah, it is just kind of like shifting your brain a little bit of like, "Okay, I don't have the usual tools I have, but I have this other set of tools or these other kind of conventions of this particular medium that I can lean on." So yeah, like with the audio drama, it was like that one in some respects was familiar, too, because it was like characters speaking.

Jennia: Mmm.

Michael DiMartino: And I was used to casting voices for our show—

Jennia: Right, yeah.

Michael DiMartino: —like, what voices would fit this character, that sort of thing. So that part was kind of familiar. But obviously the not having any visuals to go with the characters or the story was very different.

Jennia: Yeah, that makes sense too. And just thinking about how acting is present alone, you're listening to a voice actor and how they do inhabit that character and even the intonation of their voice. And there's so much that you can pick up on a spoken line versus a written line where that subtext might be missed when it's only in text versus when you hear it.

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennia: Well, is there any project you've ever had where you've gone back and thought maybe it would have done better in a different medium, but now it's already out there in the world? (both laugh)

Michael DiMartino: Not exactly. I mean, there's stuff—Like, I wrote a couple middle grade fantasy novels, which were the first novels I got published, and I don't know that they'd be better in another medium. But I look back on them now and I'm like, I kind of want to go back and rewrite this first one (laughs). I think it could be better now—you know, you just inevitably get better at your craft and you look back and go (Jennia laughs), "Ehh, that could be better."

Jennia: Yeah. So what are some of the things then that you've learned from the beginning to now where there might be something that you look back, like you just said, and think, I could have done this, or I could have done this instead?

Michael DiMartino: One thing is just getting into the emotions of the characters.

Jennia: Mmm.

Michael DiMartino: You know, that's one thing that Avatar is kind of known for is it is this big action adventure fantasy series, but people really connect to the characters and their emotions and their arcs and stuff. And so I'm always trying to make sure that I'm infusing that into the work I do. So, yeah, the novel I put out last year, I self-published. It's called Both Here and Gone. And that one is kind of different than all those other projects I was just talking about because it is based in reality. It's a more of a real-world—There's no fantasy. It is about a group of kids, you know, like teenagers—

Jennia: So there is that common theme (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: Yeah. So there's some commonalities. There's kind of a mystery element to it, but it's much more of like a realistic, coming-of-age story. It's set in the 80s and it's about a kid going through all these losses in his life and trying to cope with uncertainty and change and grief and all the stuff that we as humans are often dealing with. And that one I wanted to get in this character. It's all told in the first person, so I wanted to get into the character's headspace and really feel like you are living this kid's life and all the ups and downs and emotions that a teenager would be going through in a situation like this.

Jennia: So how did you approach including some of those heavier themes in a way that they would still be accessible and understandable to this audience without feeling like it's too much?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I never know what's too much or not too much (Jennia laughs). Because, again, I think my just kind of natural sensibility is I want to tell stories that have meaning and that resonate with people and that maybe help them through some difficult spots in their life. That's always been kind of part of the work too. Like the—Yeah, the Avatar series while being a kids show on Nickelodeon, it's basically about a kid who experienced genocide and it's, like, him going through this adventure to heal himself and the world. You know, on a show like that, it's like you're not making it super dark and depressing and kind of mulling on like serious themes all the time. But it's there, it's underlying the whole story. With my new novel, like, it is more at the forefront because it is about loss and grief and stuff. But I do find that—like, especially with publishing and novels, like, it's—I don't know if it's more expected or more acceptable or whatever (both laugh), but a novel can contain more of this heaviness, I think, without it feeling overwhelming.

Jennia: Yeah.

Michael DiMartino: And I still tried to balance it with some humor and there's a subplot with a kid who's trying to master Pac-Man (Jennia laughs). Again, this is in the 80s in the arcade. So, like, there's still some kind of lighter moments in there and stuff. So it's always like I'm trying to balance the tones and not just make it feel super bleak. And with this novel in particular, I knew since it was a heavy subject, I didn't want it to end on a downer? (laughs) I mean, there's a lot of stuff that the main character goes through. But in the end it's ultimately a hopeful message about moving through grief, moving through these difficult spots in our life so we can . . . It's not that everything goes back to normal and everything's happy and whatever. But it's like we can endure these things, we can move on and we can keep living.

Jennia: Right. And not let it become something that then defines who we are. Exactly. That it just reshapes us into a new version and a new version of what our life is like.

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, totally.

Jennia: Well, so speaking of publishing, can you explain why you decided to self-publish?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, it's something I had thought about for a while. Like, I did have that experience in traditional publishing with my middle grade novels, which was a great experience. But when I was writing this one . . . I mean, first of all, it was kind of like my own secret side project—

Jennia: Ahhh.

Michael DiMartino: —so it wasn't—Nobody really knew about it (both laugh). It was just—I wanted to try something different, you know, that wasn't part of my normal job and like I said, like, it's not the typical story I'm known for. So it wasn't like I was going to go out there and sell this idea off the bat or anything. And I wanted to try different things with just my writing process of not being so heavily into the outline and just a little more free flowing and see where it took me and stuff, which was a fun experiment. And then going back and revising and getting more into the, I guess, structural aspects of how to actually tell this story in a coherent way. Yeah, so when I finished revising the book, I did query a few agents just to see if there was any interest and I got some great responses. But it's like the business side competing with the creative side. It's like, people like the novel but they're like, "I don't know if I could sell this thing," which I totally get. So yeah, by that point I'd listened to enough podcasts and read enough stuff about self-publishing that I was like, "I think I can do this." Like, I'm used to producing stuff I know . . .

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: And I'm fairly decent on the Internet (both laugh) and I'm not afraid of technology or anything. Yeah, so I just did the whole process. I hired an editor, hired a cover designer, and yeah, launched it last year. And, I mean, there's people I know who have read it, who have really, connected with it.

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: But then knowing that it also can connect with people, I have no idea who this person is, and they picked up the book and they read it and they write this very nice review about how it moved them or help them with loss or grief. So that's always super satisfying. Like, I always knew this wasn't the same as, like, an Avatar or my normal fantasy genre, the bigger genres that sell a lot of books. So this really was like a passion project and something that I hope just lives on through the years and people can discover it.

Jennia: Were there any considerations you had to keep in mind while moving from fantasy to reality? So even differences in world building and that sort of thing?

Michael DiMartino: I guess in some ways it was different and in some ways it was actually liberating because it was like, I know the real world, I don't have to make up (Jennia laughs) how the rules of magic work or . . . So in that way I just drew on kind of my childhood and growing up in Vermont and New England and that kind of environment and the mall that I went to when I was a kid. So it was like in some way that worldbuilding part of what you do in kind of a realistic novel. It was really just drawing on experience and real-world stuff. I didn't have to do a ton of research or . . . I mean, the most research I did probably was about Pac-Man and how—(Jennia laughs)—how the levels work and the different strategies for beating the game. Because the one of the characters in the story is trying to beat the game and has all these theories about how he thinks he can do it.

Jennia: Oh yeah. I mean Pac-Man is serious business (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, totally.

Jennia: I had a similar goal when I was a child and I did end up beating it. And then you get that runaround level where it just (laughs), right.

Michael DiMartino: That's part of the book! Yeah.

Jennia: Woah! See? That's the kind of book I like!

Michael DiMartino: Wow, I'm impressed, though! You made it through all the levels?

Jennia: Yes—

Michael DiMartino: Wow.

Jennia: —I played it too often when I was a child.

Michael DiMartino: That's amazing!

Jennia: That's why I was able to beat it (both laugh).

Michael DiMartino: All right, well you might relate to this kid's story then.

Jennia: I've been thinking that this whole time (both laugh) Well, so going back to the different types of projects you've worked on, if you want to explain what it was like when you're working in a group versus when you're working independently, like on one of your novels?

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, it's two different modes because yeah00 especially with TV and film, it's very collaborative. You're all—on Avatar and Korra, you know, you're writing with a writing room. You're talking about the stories together, trying to figure out the plots and everything.

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: Then typically the writer would go off and write that episode on their own, but then they'd bring it back to the room. You'd all go over it, you'd pitch jokes, you'd rewrite it together. In some ways you have to be prepared for people not always liking every idea you pitch in the room (laughs), and that's okay! It's not personal. It's just like, "Ahh, that one, that doesn't feel right." Whereas, yeah, with the novel it's largely isolating.

Jennia: Mmm.

Michael DiMartino: In a way I don't mind that because I like the balance of the day job is more meetings and talking and collaborating and then I can have a little side thing where I could just be by myself doing whatever and nobody has to critique it (Jennia laughs) until a later date.

Jennia: Yes (laughs), until it goes to the editor and then reviews (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I mean, you obviously—you still are working with people. And there's—I don't want to imply that it's not collaborative because you might have an editor, you might have other readers reading it. It's just those have it kind of happen at certain points in the process—

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: —not every day. You're not showing. Not—I mean, maybe some people show their editor stuff every day (laughs), but most likely not. You know, you're showing them once you have a draft or you're at a certain stage in the process. So yeah, those are, those are the two big differences. And I think it just comes down to your personality and what you enjoy. And I think part of me does enjoy working with other people. And the ideas always get better. It's not just you in a bubble, like, thinking your ideas are the best. It's coming up with that—I never would have come up with Avatar on my own. It was through partnership with Bryan that we, like—we each had ideas and we were kind of bouncing off each other until we got to the core concept that became the show.

Jennia: Yeah, that makes sense. Well, do you ever miss some of that collaboration and camaraderie that happens in the moment when you're writing on your own?

Michael DiMartino: Uh, sometimes. I mean, I do remember on the—when I was doing those middle grade novels, like, there were definitely days where you're just like, "I'm lost. I'm out of ideas. I really wish I had a writing room right now to give me some ideas and we could talk about them." So yeah, there are still moments where you're like, "Yeah, I wish I could bounce this off someone right now and see what they think."

Jennia: So how did you get over those moments? Did you end up coming up with an idea on your own or did you ever reach out to someone and say, "Hey, can I talk to you about this for a little bit?"

Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I mean, I would share drafts with a couple of my friends. Sometimes it's like I just go for a walk.

Jennia: Mhm.

Michael DiMartino: Like, if I'm stuck on something, walking helps a lot. Yeah, sometimes it's literally just gotta put it aside for a little while. I mean, that definitely happened a lot. But, I mean, that happens a lot. No matter what I'm working on (laughs). It's like I do something—you know, you write something and you're like, "Oh, this seems pretty good." And then you're like, "Ehh, no, this part's not working and I don't know why." And you kind of sit at your desk for a while and tear your hair out. Well, (Jennia laughs) I don't have any hair if anyone could see this, but (laughs) . . . Yeah, oftentimes it's literally like you just go to sleep and your brain is still working. I don't know what it's doing in there, but it's still—when you have a problem that you're trying to figure out, your brain is still, like, processing this stuff even when you're not consciously doing it. So, yeah, I just find giving yourself a break and whatever that way is usually you can come back the next day and have a little, "Aha! Oh, that's what was missing," or, "Oh, I could do this and that would make it so much better."

Jennia: Yeah, I completely agree. And even just as an editor I agree because it's the same thing. Sometimes I might realize something isn't working, but I can't come up with the exact suggestion that I would like to give or a way to work around it or how do we work around this plot hole and fix it. But yeah, same idea. I have to just go do something else and then come back.

Jennia: Before we end, do you have a favorite character that you created who you would like to switch places with for a day and if so, who and why?

Michael DiMartino: Well, man, that's a tough one. I mean . . . I always identified with Aang, who's the main character of Avatar: The Last Airbender because he's, like, this happy-go-lucky monk kid (laughs). And he can airbend and fly around in his glider. So that part I would like to switch places with, the stuff he has to deal with and fighting people, I don't—(both laugh). I don't, I don't want to deal with that stuff.

Jennia: Right. So maybe switch places on an easy day when nothing is really happening.

Michael DiMartino: Yeah (Jennia laughs). And you could just go around and do some airbending and have fun. And, I mean, that was part of his story was, like, he was kind of avoiding what he was supposed to be doing because he just wanted to be a kid and have fun.

Jennia: I think a lot of people would agree with that answer if they were asked to also choose one of your characters. And just as a quick side note, before we end, one of the people I know when I mentioned that you were re going to be on the show, she stopped what she was doing and acted out a scene from Avatar (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: Oh wow!

Jennia: I thought, "This is the kind of mark you have left on people" (laughs).

Michael DiMartino: I know. I'm always amazed when I hear stories of how it's affected people's lives and that people can recite whole scenes—I can't even recite scenes (Jennia laughs) from the show anymore, so (laughs).

Jennia: Well, thank you for such a fun interview!

Michael DiMartino: Cool! Thank you so much!

Jennia: And thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information. Thanks again!