359. Going to Hollywood: Behind the Scenes with Noël Stark

Author and Hollywood-jack-of-all-trades Noël Stark stops by to talk about setting your book in Hollywood, gives a peak behind the curtains on set, and shows how there are still fresh new ideas in a popular genre.

CW: Mention of eating disorders

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Swing by Noël's website:
https://www.noelstark.com/

Check out Love, Camera, Action:
https://www.noelstark.com/#newBook

Get more details about all things Hollywood with Noël's socials:
https://www.instagram.com/noelstarkauthor/
https://www.tiktok.com/@noelstarkauthor

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, I'm Jenya Delima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the author-focused podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. When we use a real-world setting, getting key details right can be the key to pulling the reader into that space. When those details are off, you risk throwing the reader out of the story completely. We're going to take a look at one popular setting today, Hollywood and seasoned film and TV vet and author Noelle Stark is here to provide a behind-the-scenes glimpse. I'm so pleased to have you here today.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Thanks so much for having me, Jenny. It's so funny that you say that about details, because honestly, sometimes the smallest of details will make me DNF a book. If it's something that really bugs me, I'll be like, I can't believe a word that you say now. Going on. Yeah, it drives me bananas. And it also keeps me up at night because when I'm writing about something I might not know, like even though my book is about Hollywood and I have a lot of experience about Hollywood, I might not know how this camera works or which button to push. And I'll be researching and then I'll be like, God, I hope that was right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

It's so true what you just said. So I grew up in a really small town in Oregon, and yet there was a series that was set there. And so naturally I picked it up and read it, but I kept talking about all these hotels downtown and this other thing. And that's not what it's like at all. And I couldn't finish it because I thought this person seems like they just picked a name off a map. They've never actually been there. They don't understand what it's like living there, even just the culture of this town.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

How these people dress, all that sort of thing. It was just so completely counter to my own experience that it just lost me as a reader.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I it was funny because I started reading a contemporary book and it was about a bartender at a wedding. And she said to the main character guy, you know, oh, do you want a Manhattan? And he says, you know, are you gonna make it with rye? And she's like, Oh, impressed, because yes, I can make it with rye. And I'm like, but Manhattans are made with rye. That's what makes a Manhattan. Why are you even asking? You should be saying, Yeah, dum-dum.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Of course it's gonna be made with rawest glass of water come with ice.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Fancy. I love you already.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I can't think you're capable of this skill.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, exactly. And that was probably the pettiest reason why I DNF'd a book, but it did make me DNF the book.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

No, I had one like that too. I think it was conjoined twins, and they were a boy and a girl. And I thought, but it's an identical, it's one that splits.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

So they oh my god, I'm covering my face in shame. How did someone not get that? That's a simple Google away.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yes. And it was this pivotal part of the book, and so it just I couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah, that's so that's pretty dumb. That's pretty dumb.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Well, moving to Hollywood, since you do have lots of experience, I'd love to have you talk a little bit about that first and even how it influenced you as a writer.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah, okay. So my background is in TV and film, in scripted and in reality. And I've done pretty much every job you can imagine. And when I decided to write a novel, a rom-com called Love Camera Action, I decided to set it in the film industry because it's what I knew. And I didn't want to spend time world building. It was my first novel. I had other things to think about, like emotional stakes.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Oh, yeah, like character development.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Yeah, because it's a romance, and so I didn't want to think too much about the world. And so that's why I set it in that. And you know, I'd read a number of Hollywood romances, and mainly they're focused on the actors for good reason, because they're exciting and they're beautiful, uh, and sometimes the writers, but not very often on the crew. So then I wanted to set it in a cruise setting with a director and the director of photography, who's the main camera person, and uh hijinks and sues.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

As they should in any good friends. I mean, we've got to keep them apart somehow.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So, what are some of the setting elements that you added that maybe only somebody in the industry would either know about or would even think about including?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah, so um my main character, Kali, who's the director, she's flown in as a director on a series. And and I think most people think that directors on TV series are kind of the head honcho. But in reality, directors are kind of flown in for one or two episodes at a time, and they do those, and then another director is brought in. So, in a way, they're just a hired gun. And you wouldn't really know that unless you worked in the business. So, what it does is it changes roles. Most people think that the director is the top, which is true if you're working on a film or if the director is, you know, doing the whole series, although that's quite rare. But it changes the dynamic a little bit. And why I liked that for this series is because the director of the photography, who's the person who sets the tone visually and is there generally through the whole series themselves, is kind of like the head of the crew in a way, because they're there all the time. And they have to make sure that the visual language maintains through the whole series. Whereas the director just kind of comes in and moves people around, they put their stamp on it a little bit, but they can't go outside of the boundaries too much, or it'll be a different show. So as a result, the director and the director of photography have to work very closely together on a TV series. And I think that if you didn't work in the business, you wouldn't necessarily know that. And because they have to work so closely together, it allows for a lot of conflict, it allows for a lot of crushes. Like I certainly developed many crushes on my directors of photography when I was a director, because they're just, I don't know, there's something about them.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So it's uh we need to talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

We can. They're like directors of photography when they're men, and men most of the time they're men because that's just how it is. There's very few women in camera roles, which is hopefully changing, but you know, generally they're men. And you know, they're really precise artists who are incredibly focused, usually very interesting, smart dudes, and often they're kind of hot as well because you have to move around a lot as a camera person. You have to like hoist things.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

No, I can I can see it. Yeah, anything that requires that amount of physical effort, you're going to be at least in somewhat good shape just to do the job. Plus, yeah, yeah, you're actively engaging on a constant basis in something that's burning calories and building muscle. So it only stands for a reason. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

So, but they can also be tyrants because they are in control of the visual medium and they don't always like to change their focus. And so when you bring in a director who's new and excited and wants to bring new ideas to the show, the director of photography in my book, anyways, is like, I don't want new ideas, I don't want newbie directors, I just want to get through my day. So, an enemies to lovers kind of trope. Yes. And seized.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And I think you've already shared a bit that makes it pretty obvious why this would be enemies to lovers, but even if you want to give some specific examples that pertain to that Hollywood or Hollywood-esque setting.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

So Callie on her very first day, she has to come in quite quickly because the director that was supposed to direct those two episodes was fired because he said some unfortunate things about the Me Too movement. And then and then the PR people said we need to get a female director, which is also quite rare. When I started writing this book, 7% of women were directors, and now it's hovering around 12.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Which is still abysmal, but which is still terrible, but slightly better.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

So they bring her in, and she's not completely experienced, but she does have some experience. But compared to the director of photography, not nearly as much. And she comes in on the fly, ready to direct. Like one of the reasons she's been hired is because she's really good at directing sex scenes, and there's like the sex scene of the series that's happening. The series they're shooting is called The Demon, and it's the moment where the two characters get together, and she's very good at shooting these kinds of scenes. So they bring her in, and when she comes in, she's just got tons of new ideas. She's like ready to do something different, she's ready to put her mark on things. She really wants to do well because she wants to prove herself as a director. And the director of photography is like, no, we're not doing that. We're gonna keep to what we always do. And then they be they butt heads. And so that happens quite often. If you have a creative outlook and then you have to justify it to your crew, it's very difficult to do that sometimes, especially if the crew isn't on board. So that's what kind of launches them into the enemies to lovers situation because they are just butting heads throughout the whole book. And then until they start kind of falling in love and then they begin to work real well together, and then it's magic, which is also what happens, right? And if you can work with someone so closely, and it's a very intense job. And so when it works, it's magic. And when it doesn't, it's ugh, it's the worst. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Then how did you show that daily in-the-job intensity? What were some ways that you made sure the reader picked up on that and saw what it was really like?

SPEAKER_02 10:03

It was surprisingly easy because there's so much conflict within making a television series, keeping on time. Like if you're not on time, then you're kind of screwed because it affects the budget, it affects the schedule. So if Callie had an extra idea that she wanted to try, Jory would always say, How long is that gonna take? We should just stick to the rules because that's gonna take too long. And if she pushes and says, I think we should spend the time to do it because it's gonna be amazing. And then it is amazing. Jory has to bite his tongue a little bit and says, Oh, well, it was really good. You know, what she did was really good. And she made up the time later. The machinations of any workplace story, if you're really getting into the reality of what it's like to work at that place, the conflicts kind of come up on their own. Like you can see why conflicts. Anybody who goes to work has conflicts, as the people that they come home to at the end of the day hears. You know, it's like, ah, this person sent this email and they said this, and I was so mad, but I really was nice and I said this back. And it's across any work situation, there's going to be conflicts. So the more specific you can get in the conflicts of the work experience, the more you'll be able to put that in your story. If that makes sense. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, it does. And then how many of those workplace situations were based on things that you'd personally encountered or had heard about?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So then in my own case, you know, I have come across some sexist situations. And so that was very easy to put in the book as well. Now, the director of photography, Jory, is not sexist, but he's part of the patriarchy, so it's hard for him to recognize sometimes. So, one example is when the executive producer comes down, he's got this big idea that he wants to change a whole scene, but he's only talking to the director of photography. He doesn't bother to talk to the director. And it's because she's a woman. And I've experienced that before where people just talk over your head, even though you're the person that needs to be talked to. So that was a very easy thing. And then, and then Jory, the director of photography, is embarrassed because he knows this is happening, but this is also his boss. So it's a hard balance for him to make as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, I can definitely see that being difficult. And even when you were just talking about that, not that I work in Hollywood, but even when I was buying my last car, my dad came with me to help me pick it out. He just kept talking to my dad like I wasn't there.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah, yeah. And and as a woman, you know, like you're blonde, so that makes it worse as though you don't know what you're doing. Sometimes they'll talk to me because I'm taller. If I'm taller than the guys that I'm with, that sometimes helps. Oh that's interesting, too. Yeah. I know. So it's weird because you really are judged a lot on what you look like, and it has nothing to do with who you are. I've had friends who are women who are hardly ever taken seriously because of the way they look. And they are super smart women.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Is that something that you include in the book too? Even how appearance plays a part and how you might be treated by different people within that hierarchy.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, yeah. The looks part I didn't, I didn't get into too much. Although I do talk a little bit about the actress because the actress has to barely eat because you know she can't put any weight on. So it's like she knows that if she gains five pounds, she could lose her job.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Oh, so it's indirectly there then, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

So also I want to talk about sensory cues and maybe which sensory cues you used, or which seemed so particular to this kind of setting that you felt like they had to be included.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

That's a good question. Nobody's asked me that. All right, Jenny, nice. Um, I like to use sounds. So, like the sounds of the set. Um you know, the clangs, the shuffles, like how everyone goes quiet at certain points, like if it's a very tense moment, how you know, silence falls. I like to use physical motions like stepping over chords or an actor doing an action scene, like how they physically do an action scene. I like to use a lot of physical stuff because I find that that's really helpful just to kind of put that picture in your mind. I love using taste, maybe because I like to eat, but I don't I don't use smell that often because I I don't have a good sense of smell. So maybe that is why. But it's funny because my character, you know, in romance novels, there's always a smell connection.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yes, yes, they always have that association with some just like this.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, yeah. So, but because I have not a great smell, sense of smell, I put it into my character and I said, Oh, like she says, Oh man, Joey smells so good, but what does he smell like? Like a tree, like some kind of a tree.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Okay, I think that's how most of us would do it because I know I can't tell the difference between certain types of trees, just smell so.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

I know, people are like a cedar tree in like the north of London. Yeah, it's winter. Yeah, really, and sunshine. Right, yes, right. And so, like my character is just like, I don't know, it just smells like trees. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

No, I love that because I think that that's probably how most of us again, if we were put into that situation, how do you smell like I don't know? Yeah, like the exact one.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Well, moving into the romance part a little bit, how did you use this setting for some of their turning points or for your story beats?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

So I get into some HR problems with this because I always thought when I started in TV and film, like the Me Too movement hadn't started yet. And so it was a place where bad behavior happened a lot, but also like emotions ran high. And I think now people are very, very careful about those emotions running high because they can get into a lot of trouble. And I think it's smart that they are careful that emotions run high. But I just always thought it was really sexy for people to be hooking up around different parts of the set because it's, you know, it's dark, it's quiet, there's all these nooks and crannies. There's also different sets. It's the show about the demons. So so I did that. And but the turning point that happens is they're fighting so much that the producer has to come in and say, You guys need to work your crap out because you're making the crew miserable. And I'm worried we're gonna go over budget. So you guys work it out. And she pushes them through a closet door, which doesn't go to a closet, it goes to the back sets and a wall. And it puts them in this kind of liminal space that's in between worlds that allows them to drop their guards, they don't really talk to each other, they just look at each other and they start kissing. And it's this sort of liminal space that a set provides that allowed them to kind of step out of who they were.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

I just imagine this as like an adult timeout zone. That is exactly what it is. She she basically says that.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

The producer says that. I love that. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

And she makes a comment, she says, Don't tell HR because I shouldn't be doing this, but I need to keep my show on budget. So, you guys, 15 minutes in the closet, work it out. And they work it out in a different way. And as a result, like their guards do drop and they start working together much better. Now, I don't suggest if you're having conflicts with someone at work that you pull them into a closet and make out with them. I don't suggest that.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

We'll have a disclaimer in the show notes. Yeah, but in a romance, it's fun. Exactly. Well, how do you think their dynamic would have been different if their careers had been switched?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. But that gets into so many gender politics then, because if the guy's a newbie and he's the director, the woman who is a director of photography might sit back on her ideas a little bit more because I think men tend to be socialized, to be leaders, to be au tours, to say, my idea is the only idea and we will be doing it. And that's something I play with a lot in the book. Callie, the director, she she has to fight for her authority, whereas men generally don't. But she's also very collaborative and she makes that a part of her working culture. And Jory has to learn how to be collaborative in that way. And so he begins to understand what the language of the patriarchy has been doing to him and how it's been cutting off his own creativity because he hasn't been listening to anyone else's ideas. And that's sort of how he grows. So I think if you swapped them, it would be harder because I think men have a harder time understanding that collaboration is valuable.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

And I don't think it's because they're bad, and I don't think it's because they're dumb. I think it's just that's the way they are socialized. And women are socialized to collaborate. I think it would be a much that's an excellent Jenny. You with these questions, they're so good. Um I think I think if you swapped their roles, it would be a much different book.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, I'd probably have totally different tropes. It might not even be enemies to lovers, or if I did, it would be on a much smaller scale, where more of that's just that simmering anger of I'm going to present this socially acceptable, nice, outward-facing persona, but inside I'm seething.

unknown 20:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Well, looking at how High was been depicted in other movies and books and other media, what are some of the common things you see people getting wrong?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

It's not, at least it's not as dog eat dog as everybody thinks. I think all industries get dog eat dog when you hit a certain level. When you're dealing with movie stars and executives that are making multi-million dollar movies, it's going to be the same level of cutthroat business acumen as somebody who works for the stock exchange or somebody who works for a pharmaceutical company. I think that that's what's mainly depicted in Hollywood. What people don't see, and I kind of hoped that I show in my book that the set is very blue-collar in a way. It's very much like a working person's job. Like I have tons of friends that are on crews that could also just be electricians or could be working in construction or could be working in an office. They just happen to be working on a set. And it's just people getting through their day, hitting their budgets, hitting their schedules, just like any other job. What most things don't get is that it's also very boring. There's a lot of boring waiting time on a set where people just are standing around waiting for something to happen so that they can shoot. And it's not glamorous at all. Like there's almost no glamour in that at all. It's it's all very hard work, intense work, emotional work that happens in a short amount of time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah. And I think part of that too is just who we usually see set as that main character. And it's usually going to be an actor. Or an actress or someone very closely linked to them. So I've seen, like, you know, the assistant maybe, or the nanny, and not really so much that behind the scenes work that isn't as lauded in the media.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah, exactly. And even for the actors and actresses on set, it's so boring for them. You have to sit in the makeup chair for two hours. And if it's prosthetics or they have to do, you know, some kind of intense makeup, it could be way longer than that. A lot of the times they're sitting in their trailers waiting to be called, or they're just sitting on the set, waiting for everybody to be finished so that they can start crying, which is a very hard job. You know. Yeah. I was an I was also an actress. That was one of my jobs, and it's a very difficult space to occupy. So I think that's what people don't know. That it's it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of hard, tedious work that can also be very fun, of course. But yeah, I think that's what most movies because like who wants to see someone wait around? Who wants to who wants to see a story about boring things? Nobody, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

No, but in a romance, I think that works because you're giving them time to be together. They have nothing else to do but stand around, have this conversation, bicker, banter.

unknown 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

And they can have their internal thoughts, they can have space to think. Whereas, you know, in film and TV, you don't get their internal thoughts. So you just have to move all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah. Speaking of which, how did that work for you? Since I know you'd let's see, you'd worked on a bunch of shows. So how'd that work with that? Then moving here where you do have access to providing all that internal dialogue.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah, that was a real difficulty for me. I had to really think about what the internal monologues of these people were. I had to really think about their emotional spaces. And because I had depended so much of my writing either on, you know, scripts that involve actors who bring their own emotional interiority to it, or working in reality TV, where you're setting people up in these kind of crazy circumstances and just like letting them go. And then you edit it together to make sense. To actually think about how people were thinking, how they were feeling, took me a lot of time to figure out. Like I would give my beta readers or my editors these scenes, and they'd say, Okay, well, I don't really know what this person's thinking. And I'm like, Well, it's right there in the dialogue. And they're like, No, it's not right there in the dialogue. And I'm like, oh. So then I had to figure out how to do that. So that was hard for me for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, I can see that. Well, so as a final question, I was feeling very serious. And that is, what would Kelly and Jory most likely sneak into a movie theater and why?

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Oh my God, I love that question. You know what they would do? They would feel guilty about not paying for at least one movie, but they would do that thing, you know, when you were a kid where you would sneak into other movies after the movie was done, and they'd totally do that and try to be all casual and sneak around and giggle, but then they would fight in between about which movie they were gonna see next and why that movie was good or why they should see it. They would totally fight about that.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Just from everything you said about them in this conversation, I can totally see it. All right, awesome. Good characterization there. All right, well, thank you again. And if there's anything else you'd like to leave listeners with, now's the time.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Uh, just that this has been delightful. I really love these questions. They made me think, which is not always great to make me think. But hopefully I made some sense. And if anybody wants to get the book, it's love camera action and they can get it wherever they get books. There's audiobooks, there's ebooks, there's all the things. So all right.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Well, thank you again. Thank you. And thank you for listening. And be sure to check out the show notes for additional information. And if you enjoyed today's episode, I'd appreciate if you could rate and review this podcast on Apple or Spotify. Thanks again.